Ford Focus RS Forum banner

1 - 20 of 177 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I was thinking of trading my car on an Audi RS3 and was SHOCKED to see the KBB buy offer was only $29,200. Then went and looked at RS's for sale and there were a ton within 500 miles under $35,000. So it seems to support a trade offer under $30k. That's rough considering I paid $42,000 14 months ago. Luckily I had a trade worth almost that much so didn't get stuck with $3k in taxes too.

What is going on? How can these go from the most sought after car a year ago with ADM's all over the place, year long waits to values sinking like the Titanic?

Is it just everyone dumping their cars after a year so supply is through the roof?:confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
589 Posts
Several factors:
Cars sat on lots becuase of ADM and drove away potential customers
Headgasket issue: the car is branded as a risk
People who have dumped their RS’ at a loss have driven the price down
The limited production car has an even more limited MY18 people are more interested in purchasing.

Hopefully it will stabilize.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
388 Posts
generic problem :
- 13k loss in 1 year is a bit high but unless that was your 1st new car, loosing 10k/year is a given for most cars
don't think an Audi is better, you will loose a few % less but with the higher base price you'll loose the same or worse, I have a colleague with a 120'000$ max options Audi he lost like 15k/year at the beginning he was not happy ;)
- buying a new car is always a hefty loss, the only reason to do that is to not want to bother with services, warranties and such

NA specific problem :
- you never had a focus rs so didn't know what to expect, from what I read in these forums a lot of mistake buys happened, we don't really have that in Europe as no one interested by a VW or Audi would buy a Ford (it's mostly rally fans or people who drive "rally-style" which buy them...if you don't know what I mean by that you bought the wrong car obviously)
- you have access to cheaper performance cars than most european countries with all your accessible muscle cars (edit: I mean you have more choices and alternatives than in other countries), in my country most of them are imports costing +20k$ also we pay a tax based on weight and displacement/power so that'll be 3k$/year to only have the right to drive a Charger heh only mid-high income people drive pony/muscle way too expensive here
- +1 RSt your adm that does not exist in EU does not help
- the headgasket engine weakness cold-showered everyone who planned to tune his RS (not my case, laws here have become to strict to bother with it) (edit: I know a few people who regularly go on a race track and who sold their RS because it did not fit the intended use, they want to tune them and drive them for hours on a track)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
263 Posts
What is going on? How can these go from the most sought after car a year ago with ADM's all over the place, year long waits to values sinking like the Titanic?

Is it just everyone dumping their cars after a year so supply is through the roof?:confused:
Hard lesson to learn, but this is why you never pay invoice, let alone over invoice for a car. I don't care how much hype a car has, not a single one is worth paying MSRP for.

You wait just a small amount of time, and prices drop drastically, happens every single time some new hot car comes to market.

The supply you are talking about is brand new ones sitting on dealer lots, they tried too hard to capitalize (like they always do) now they are selling new ones a few grand under MSRP. Supply is up, demand has leveled out.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
15,823 Posts
I had a salesperson pull me to the side the last time I was in for service and tell me how sales had slowed. He asked me why he still had 6 FoRS on the lot? Simple, with demand down they needed to get rid of the ADMs to sell the cars. Still haven't had a LE 2018 show up on the showroom floor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
88 Posts
the KBB buy offer was only $29,200.
I don't know if you are referring to the offer you get if you just go on the KBB site and then a bunch of dealers send you quotes, but in my experience those quotes are lower than what you can actually get for a trade in at a dealer if you are buying a new car. The KBB offer for my 2013 Audi A4 was a ridiculous $16,500, but my actual trade in at the dealer when I was in person and they could see the car was $19,500, so quite a difference. That said, yes, depreciation is a *****.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
263 Posts
I don't know if you are referring to the offer you get if you just go on the KBB site and then a bunch of dealers send you quotes, but in my experience those quotes are lower than what you can actually get for a trade in at a dealer if you are buying a new car.
This is extremely valid, and dealers are especially motivated right now. (all brands)

For those who are old enough to remember, ever notice how fewer and fewer people keep and drive old cars these days? Especially in the past 15 years.

It is not a coincidence, it has become easier for people to get newer cars, thus demand is lower in general.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,187 Posts
Not unusual depreciation for a $40k car. If you've owned the car for 14 mos. It is most likely a 2016 or very early 2017, so the car is possibly 2 model years old or at least over 1 yr. A drop in msrp to "resale" price of -15 to 20% per yr is fairly common, so a $35k resale price on a 2017 is about right, and if it is a 2016 it is quite good. The key is that the dealers now want to make 20% on a trade-in (buy price vs resale price). So the additional hit you're taking is the dealers margin on your trade-in. This is unfortunately pretty common in dealer related trades.

Normally I'd recommend doing a private party sale, but as others have mentioned, the fact that there are 2017 on the lots, even a few 2016 there is a lot of incentive for buyers to to get a new car. Hence reselling will require a substancial incentive for a buyer to consider a used car.

The RS will never be a "collectable" , IMO, bc of the number made/imported. The current availability of new cars and the "cloud" over possible engine reliability will erase the "premium" that these cars might have commanded.

I think it is a great car, and a great value even at conventional depreciation rates. Cars like Porsche, BMW Audi, etc all have substancial deprecation during yrs 1 and 2....and bc they coat more $12-15k per yr is not untypical. Buying any new car and reselling/trading within 24 months is an unwise financial transaction unless it is truly a limited availability car (think Porsche GT4). Dealers tried to create the illusion of limited availability/exclusivity..and initially it worked....times have changed. It is now a low production run car with avaliable dealer inventory.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
Agree with all the earlier comments....this is also due to the familiar dance step that manufacturers & dealers do: hyped Car that is worthy of hype + limited initial supply = markup. I was interested but not so much that I’d pay the mark up. When I did buy a 2017 new - I got it at 5% off MSRP - not tons but decent. And I opted for a base car cause I didn’t need the RS2, and preferred the stock wheels so I reasoned if I sold the car later, I could do it for about 50-55% of MSRP in three years and look like a screaming deal (old dude sells a bone stock RS with 50k hwy miles for 18k)....who knows, maybe people will all look for the options I don’t have and I’ll struggle....then I’ll trade it in, grumble about the extra $3+grand they’ll take outta my hide and move on. If I get outta that first two years of horrible depreciation - that affects virtually EVERY CAR, it’ll work out.

Short ownership tenure kills value....no way around it. I’ve lived it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
261 Posts
The initial depreciation for new cars is usually pretty brutal. Then it slows down a bit. There are a few exceptions, but that is usually how it plays out. I think a lot of RS buyers were way overly optimistic and thought these cars would hold their value or even go up... but that was a pipe dream.

Much like I expected, many RS owners got an expensive lesson about why you never pay ADM.

I think a real world trade in offer for the OPs car would be higher than the KBB offer. Those are always low. They offered me like $15.5k for my ST, then Carmax offered $17k. I probably could have sold it for $18-19k.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Hey all, good discussion, but let me clarify and make a few points. I've bought many new cars; this is my fifth. 05 Jeep Rubicon, 05 Dodge 2500, 07 Duramax, 12 Raptor and now my 16 RS. I'm well versed in the depreciation hit the first couple years as well as trade-in vs private party sales, etc etc etc.

And given all that I am usually pretty good about picking up models that are special enough to hold their value pretty well whether it be new or used. I have to be cognizant because I don't keep my vehicles too long. The RS had all the markings of having a better than normal depreciation curve. Unfortunately it seems to be suffering extremely bad right now which I find interesting and unusual.

Just look how well the GT350's and newer Raptors are doing. Same with the 12-13 GT500's a year or two later. And Boss 302's.

Also regarding the KBB quote, it was the Instant Cash Offer: https://www.kbb.com/instant-cash-offer/?Lp=73111D1C-71E5-4563-8EED-03932B322D6C&OfferCode=B&zip=44241&LNX=TIMKBBGNAVCV which I think is pretty accurate as far as a trade-in price as long as the dealer is not making bank on the sell of the car your trading for. When the average Retail price of a 2016 RS is $35k, trade-in is going to be around $30k so the dealer can turn a profit on it.

I wasn't really looking for a oh ho hum feel sad for me! I was really curious what you guys thought was going on because I really think this is unusual depreciation for such a well reviewed, hyped, somewhat-limited production, special car.

Is it really the engine issues that is causing it? That might be part of it, but my gut feeling is that most people bought the RS sight unseen without even a test drive based on a want. They lived with it for a year, the luster wore off of the manual, Recaro seats and the pops and they are unloading their cars flooding the market. This coupled with dealers still having new cars now at a discount due to unrealized ADM sales is further compounding the problem.

Me? I'm going to hold onto it for another year at least to wait out the engine issues and supply problem. I have a hunch it will level off and at the 3 year mark as long as the engine issues don't turn into the Porsche 996 IMS, depreciation will be ~$5k/yr which is pretty good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
607 Posts
I wasn't really looking for a oh ho hum feel sad for me! I was really curious what you guys thought was going on because I really think this is unusual depreciation for such a well reviewed, hyped, somewhat-limited production, special car.
It's not so limited when currently supply exceeds demand which is the case, and the '18 LE has caused the earlier models to lose some allure for folks just looking.
It's also exactly the depreciation one would expect in a US branded car after it's first 12-14 months, hype doesn't factor into it when supply is good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
87 Posts
It's true the automotive market as a whole is definitely down. I know it's apples and oranges, but when the market is down, if there are a lot less people buying Fusions, Escapes, or F-150s even, then chances are, the market for specialty cars will be rough as well.

That said, without question, the two biggest factors that have/will hurt our values are: 1. Greed (dealer markup) and as a consequential side effect (that Ford should've been better prepared for, imo) 2. too many cars. I just ran a search and there are 116 '16-'17 NEW RSs just sitting on dealer lots within a 300 dealer radius. 116!!! Why on Earth would a potential buyer want to pay $30-35k for a used one, when you can now get a decent deal on a new one? The '18 MY is completely pointless, and was a half-hearted attempt to try to re-ignite some of the initial RS magic before dealer markup helped crush it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
It's not so limited when currently supply exceeds demand which is the case, and the '18 LE has caused the earlier models to lose some allure for folks just looking.
It's also exactly the depreciation one would expect in a US branded car after it's first 12-14 months, hype doesn't factor into it when supply is good.
Well yes, supply is obviously outpacing demand at the moment. But compared to a "normal" car it is limited production. Compare it to something like the Chevy Cruze; 200k+.

And I don't agree, look at Raptors and GT350s. I feel like this is actually unusual given what I posted already... well reviewed, hyped, somewhat-limited production, special car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
I just ran a search and there are 116 '16-'17 NEW RSs just sitting on dealer lots within a 300 dealer radius. 116!!! Why on Earth would a potential buyer want to pay $30-35k for a used one, when you can now get a decent deal on a new one?
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I just ran an Autotrader search and there are 1375 new ones listed in the country. That is what; a 1/4 of total production? Insane for a car that is at least a model year old and I even found 34 that were 2016's... two years old! Worst part is I found some up to $7,000 off. The used market is just being crushed by the supply of old new stock.

The dealers popped this balloon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
339 Posts
It's not just the RS, it's every single car out there. As an example, the lease on my MDX was up this September, as I looked at the residual and trade-in value they were exactly the same so I decided to keep it and finance the rest. 3 months later it's $6k negative equity with little to no miles added from September. Just walk into a CarMax and look how many used cars there are. I read an article that buying used is the new buying new, it makes sense. I have seen some RS's with less than 10K miles for under $30K which is pretty good. The ST resale is even worse.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,428 Posts
Hard lesson to learn, but this is why you never pay invoice, let alone over invoice for a car. I don't care how much hype a car has, not a single one is worth paying MSRP for.

You wait just a small amount of time, and prices drop drastically, happens every single time some new hot car comes to market.

The supply you are talking about is brand new ones sitting on dealer lots, they tried too hard to capitalize (like they always do) now they are selling new ones a few grand under MSRP. Supply is up, demand has leveled out.
Agreed. The first unspoken for FW RS2 at my local dealership, they wanted 5K ADM a little over a year ago, in July/August 2016, and all the neighboring dealers in a 100 square mile were the same, or more, some with 10k ADM. I laughed at the sales manager and the GM of my local stealer. I told them both they were high. Who pays ADM for this class of car? Apparently a lot did, they got all hyped up, impatient, and had to have it now! I mean if it's your first car or something, understood. But who doesn't know, that wait just a single year, everything cools, and you can save yourself a whole lot of money. I knew the bubble would burst and it's not rocket science as I've seen this with automobiles and motorcycles over the last quarter century. Those who have to be FIRST will pay for privilege and take the most risk.

I waited 6 months, and paid $10k less than that original offer (with tax, and interest) to me by the sales manager of +5k adm, which ending up being $1400 under invoice. If you buy high, then be prepared to lose more. And I didn't go into this half assed, I knew whatever I bought, would be long term. This class of car was low 30's, then mid 30's, now high 30's. That rising MSRP put me on the back foot, and hold off for the right car and right price. Anyone who bulldozed their way into a RS, and the people who car flip a lot, oh my. I'm still amazed how easily or how carelessly some buy vehicles. They must be looking at payments instead of spending forty thousand dollars. No way was I going to waste 10k of my hard earned money. Instead I can put 10k into it when the time is right.

Hell I'm tired of buying cars. Getting that next latest greatest thing does nothing for me. People are ingrained to get the latest phone, or console, or flat screen, or i-device, f man, an automobile makes all that look like peanuts. You can learn soft, or learn hard, but you will learn one way or the other. Only reason I didn't wait an additional year, was I knew the RS run would be short, and didn't want ADAS. I knew the next gen cars would all have it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_driver-assistance_systems
When I saw VW put DAP (Driver assist package) on every 2017 Golf R, I knew it was time. I want a vehicle that I can swap head units out down the line and don't want automotive computer nannies dictating control over what I can and cannot do. The next gens will all have it on there so any long term ownership, you'll be limited in many things on what you can do to it. Vehicles will soon be treated like phones if not already, with people buying/trading to get a new car because it has some phone integration function. These higher costs, was time for me to buy and bow out. The RS may be my last gasoline powered car. They are just getting too expensive and much too complicated. If I'm going complicated, then I'll daily an electric vehicle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Agreed. The first unspoken for FW RS2 at my local dealership, they wanted 5K ADM....blah blah blah
Dude you are going wayyyy off topic here getting into your philosophy of buying cars. I didn't pay ADM and the people that did know it was poof gone as soon as they started the car. I also didn't pay under invoice like you, but I got about $3-$4k more on my Raptor trade than I probably should have, so I did alright.

Anyhow, back on topic. I also don't feel like the sky is falling on all new cars. AGAIN look at the GT350 and the Raptor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
525 Posts
I'm not too surprised to be honest. Their is pretty low demand for our car all things considering. The RS never really managed to get past "It's still a Focus" stigma that cars like the WRX or the Golf have. Yeah some of it is just good old fashion internet trolling and the next WRX owner to say that to me will get e-slapped, but it's still pretty prevalent. I've had multiple people (And it's bad just getting one) come up to me and start talking about the RS. How it's a nice Focus but they went to the dealer and saw one for 40-50k. Who would pay that much for a Focus they ask me. Get's a bit awkward after that. It also doesn't have the American reputation that the F150 or the Mustang have, and their special editions do well because of that. Everyone loves a truck around here, and when you make that truck faster? You win the hearts (and the wallets) of the populous.

And then when it comes to enthusiasts who actually know what the car is? Well Ford and their dealers did a decent job writing themselves off of their buy list. Yes, ADM killed it for a lot of people. Yes, potential head gaskets have killed it for some others. Even used prices were insane up until a few months ago. My first RS was listed for more than what I payed for it new and ended up going to auction because they couldn't offload it at their stupid price. This resulted in lots of new and used RS' sitting around, and no one to buy them. Why buy a potentially problematic car for more than the other options? And now here we are with more and more sitting around not being sold, 2018s coming around with shiny additions (and more ADM), and more and more people dumping them for various reasons. Inventory is increasing and demand is still low and thus prices are dropping.

It's a great car but a terrible time to try and dump one on the market.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
I'm not too surprised to be honest. Their is pretty low demand for our car all things considering. The RS never really managed to get past "It's still a Focus" stigma that cars like the WRX or the Golf have. Yeah some of it is just good old fashion internet trolling and the next WRX owner to say that to me will get e-slapped, but it's still pretty prevalent. I've had multiple people (And it's bad just getting one) come up to me and start talking about the RS. How it's a nice Focus but they went to the dealer and saw one for 40-50k. Who would pay that much for a Focus they ask me. Get's a bit awkward after that. It also doesn't have the American reputation that the F150 or the Mustang have, and their special editions do well because of that. Everyone loves a truck around here, and when you make that truck faster? You win the hearts (and the wallets) of the populous.

And then when it comes to enthusiasts who actually know what the car is? Well Ford and their dealers did a decent job writing themselves off of their buy list. Yes, ADM killed it for a lot of people. Yes, potential head gaskets have killed it for some others. Even used prices were insane up until a few months ago. My first RS was listed for more than what I payed for it new and ended up going to auction because they couldn't offload it at their stupid price. This resulted in lots of new and used RS' sitting around, and no one to buy them. Why buy a potentially problematic car for more than the other options? And now here we are with more and more sitting around not being sold, 2018s coming around with shiny additions (and more ADM), and more and more people dumping them for various reasons. Inventory is increasing and demand is still low and thus prices are dropping.

It's a great car but a terrible time to try and dump one on the market.
Good analysis and good point on the Mustang and F150. I haven't really got much of the Focus stigma, but I understand it. Pretty interesting it hasn't crossed over into STI / Evo territory. Be very interesting in 2 - 3 years once the second owners buy really well and hold on to them for a while, production and new ones are done and hopefully the engine issues get sorted.
 
1 - 20 of 177 Posts
Top