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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

I was looking to purchase both shock tower braces as well as the cross member brace and rdu brace. I was wondering if anyone had any advise as to which I should purchase first. Or if one is just not worth getting. The shock tower braces are produced by massive speeds. The braces are produced by TBperformance. I just want to know if anyone has any suggestions. I just want to improve the cornering capabilities. Thank you for your time!
 

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To be completely honest, the RS is plenty stiff as it is stock, you can see a lot of cars lifting a back wheel during hard cornering in the autox thread, so I feel the addition of these braces won't be much of a benefit.

What exactly about the "cornering capabilities" are you trying to improve? Trying get more overall grip? Trying to fix understeer/oversteer? Trying to improve turn-in or ease of rotation? Reduce body roll? etc.

I feel that there are a number of other better "bang for your buck" paths you can take instead of adding all this bracing (read: more unnecessary weight): better tires, a performance alignment (more neg camber, zero'ing toe, maxing out caster), a slightly stiffer rear sway bar, etc. just to name a few.
 

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In addition to what @BigFatFlip is asking, I think another question is what mods have you done so far? If we can know that in addition to your goals, that would help. Generally the bracing that you're talking about adding are some of the very last things that people do to achieve better handling on these cars, not the first (or second, or third, etc etc). Because as he stated, the RS is pretty stiff out of the gate.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
To be completely honest, the RS is plenty stiff as it is stock, you can see a lot of cars lifting a back wheel during hard cornering in the autox thread, so I feel the addition of these braces won't be much of a benefit.

What exactly about the "cornering capabilities" are you trying to improve? Trying get more overall grip? Trying to fix understeer/oversteer? Trying to improve turn-in or ease of rotation? Reduce body roll? etc.

I feel that there are a number of other better "bang for your buck" paths you can take instead of adding all this bracing (read: more unnecessary weight): better tires, a performance alignment (more neg camber, zero'ing toe, maxing out caster), a slightly stiffer rear sway bar, etc. just to name a few.
I want to try and improve the body roll. Sorry for some reason I had a brain fart and could not thinking of the words for it. I might take a look at a slightly stiffer rear sway bar. Do you have any that you recommend?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
In addition to what @BigFatFlip is asking, I think another question is what mods have you done so far? If we can know that in addition to your goals, that would help. Generally the bracing that you're talking about adding are some of the very last things that people do to achieve better handling on these cars, not the first (or second, or third, etc etc). Because as he stated, the RS is pretty stiff out of the gate.
So far everything is upgraded power wise while keeping the stock motor. like full stop. NX2 big turbo. Full bolt on. colder plugs. RMM. And water methanol injection. Yeah so far I have mostly been focusing on power. I do not know what routes usually people take in terms of handling body roll and what not. However, I was going to wait on coilovers because I wanted to save up for the dynamic pro gravel rally coilovers from yellow speed racing. Other than that I am pretty clueless and open to all suggestions! Thankyou for your time.
 

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What is your goal with the car? That will determine what ultimately needs to be done with your suspension. As a simplistic example: If it's a street car, then spring drop and rear sway bar would be a cheap fix. If your going for a track car then coil overs, camber plates, and larger wheels/tires are a must to be competitive.
 

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What is your goal with the car? That will determine what ultimately needs to be done with your suspension. As a simplistic example: If it's a street car, then spring drop and rear sway bar would be a cheap fix. If your going for a track car then coil overs, camber plates, and larger wheels/tires are a must to be competitive.
^ This.

I'll add to it by saying that while I'm hardly a suspension expert, the general thought is to make the big changes first, then use the smaller changes to tweak & fine tune things. If you're really wanting coilovers, the best course of action would be to wait & put all of your money toward that because it's a very large (possibly the largest) change to the suspension that you can make. Then after you've done that, start fine tuning it with things like sway bars & possibly bracing if you still feel that you need it at that point. Good coilovers can go a long way with solving how planted & controlled the car is, & you may find at that point that you don't need to do anything else.
 

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I want to try and improve the body roll. Sorry for some reason I had a brain fart and could not thinking of the words for it. I might take a look at a slightly stiffer rear sway bar. Do you have any that you recommend?
If you are trying to address over all body roll, stiffer sway bars can definitely help reduce that, but it's really more of a "fine tuning" mod to shift the weight transfer bias to fix oversteer/understeer when changing directions. As you mentioned, I would start with a stiffer rear sway bar abd save the fronts for later. The rears are way easier to install than the front and, depending on what tires you are running, a stiffer front sway bar can actually cause more understeer.

I have the whitelines in rear, which I'm very happy with. They were the softest I've found and I have them set to the softest setting (30% stiffer I think?).

However, I was going to wait on coilovers because I wanted to save up for the dynamic pro gravel rally coilovers from yellow speed racing.
Is the ultimate goal to have this car on dirt roads? If that is the case, you'll definitely want softer sway bars, so might want to hang onto the stock rear one once you do go this route.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
What is your goal with the car? That will determine what ultimately needs to be done with your suspension. As a simplistic example: If it's a street car, then spring drop and rear sway bar would be a cheap fix. If your going for a track car then coil overs, camber plates, and larger wheels/tires are a must to be competitive.
So this sounds really dumb, but my whole goal for this car was to be able to take it off road/rally driving while also being able to switch it to normal street. That's why I want to invest into those three way adjustable coilovers.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
^ This.

I'll add to it by saying that while I'm hardly a suspension expert, the general thought is to make the big changes first, then use the smaller changes to tweak & fine tune things. If you're really wanting coilovers, the best course of action would be to wait & put all of your money toward that because it's a very large (possibly the largest) change to the suspension that you can make. Then after you've done that, start fine tuning it with things like sway bars & possibly bracing if you still feel that you need it at that point. Good coilovers can go a long way with solving how planted & controlled the car is, & you may find at that point that you don't need to do anything else.
This is actually super helpful because I wasn't too sure what route to take in order to get started into fine tuning the suspension. I feel like honing down on one thing to start with would be the easiest. However, I was having trouble identifying what that would be.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
If you are trying to address over all body roll, stiffer sway bars can definitely help reduce that, but it's really more of a "fine tuning" mod to shift the weight transfer bias to fix oversteer/understeer when changing directions. As you mentioned, I would start with a stiffer rear sway bar abd save the fronts for later. The rears are way easier to install than the front and, depending on what tires you are running, a stiffer front sway bar can actually cause more understeer.

I have the whitelines in rear, which I'm very happy with. They were the softest I've found and I have them set to the softest setting (30% stiffer I think?).



Is the ultimate goal to have this car on dirt roads? If that is the case, you'll definitely want softer sway bars, so might want to hang onto the stock rear one once you do go this route.
Yeah! so like I want to be able to do more rally/street orientated driving. This is why I think having the adjustable coilovers would make this possible. I think there is a thread on here called lifting the rs. I remember reading if you understand the correct setting the coilovers could be used for both while also giving me more ground clearance.
 

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This is actually super helpful because I wasn't too sure what route to take in order to get started into fine tuning the suspension. I feel like honing down on one thing to start with would be the easiest. However, I was having trouble identifying what that would be.
I tend to look at systems like this a bit more holistically than most people, mainly because something like suspension is a very complex formula made up of a lot of moving parts. Change one thing & it easily affects 2 or 3 (or more!) other parts of the system. So to my mind it makes sense to do the biggest change first & to isolate the change just to that, get that working as well as is reasonable, then move on to the next biggest change that I think needs to be made, get that working with the system....lather, rinse, repeat until I've met my goal to my satisfaction. In this case, that would be the coilovers first, then just see what the car needs after getting those somewhat dialed in. You may find that you don't need to do anything further!

YMMV & others may not agree with that approach, but that's how I view it. :) I'll be super interested to hear how it goes, rallying & offroad with these cars just sounds like buckets of fun. (not being sarcastic with that comment btw)
 

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I tend to look at systems like this a bit more holistically than most people, mainly because something like suspension is a very complex formula made up of a lot of moving parts. Change one thing & it easily affects 2 or 3 (or more!) other parts of the system. So to my mind it makes sense to do the biggest change first & to isolate the change just to that, get that working as well as is reasonable, then move on to the next biggest change that I think needs to be made, get that working with the system....lather, rinse, repeat until I've met my goal to my satisfaction. In this case, that would be the coilovers first, then just see what the car needs after getting those somewhat dialed in. You may find that you don't need to do anything further!

YMMV & others may not agree with that approach, but that's how I view it. :) I'll be super interested to hear how it goes, rallying & offroad with these cars just sounds like buckets of fun. (not being sarcastic with that comment btw)
As you've indicated, rallying really needs more ground clearance, long travel and a more compliant suspension setup....this is in direct conflict with wanting flatter cornering. By its nature you want longer travel and greater weight transfer (body roll) for rally competition. Most RS owners try to optimise their cars for street driving so reducing body roll, ride height and stiffening the suspension works well....but not what you want if you want to be competitive in rally events.

Suggest researching rally suspensions and talk with knowledgeable people that can provide specific guidance.
 

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Set of really good tires goes an extremely long way and can eliminate body roll if your running crap rubber. I would suggest replacing the rear sway and mounts and see how it feels after that. Then go with coils. Thing you did wrong was hey I need to be the stop light grandprix champ first before you know how to handle your car.
 

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As usual I think Iflouie is spot on in his assessment. Very few RS owners Rally their cars so experience on this site is minimal. You need to seek advice from vendors who specialize in that area.
Also, you may get away with running the NX big turbo in a rally event if you're able to maintain high speeds and the course is not particularly tight. In my experience there is too much lag time with a large turbo for autocross, road courses, and street racing unless your well above the posted speed.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
As usual I think Iflouie is spot on in his assessment. Very few RS owners Rally their cars so experience on this site is minimal. You need to seek advice from vendors who specialize in that area.
Also, you may get away with running the NX big turbo in a rally event if you're able to maintain high speeds and the course is not particularly tight. In my experience there is too much lag time with a large turbo for autocross, road courses, and street racing unless your well above the posted speed.
was told their might be an issue with lag. However, I am running water methanol injection from a snow performance boost cooler. Do you think that will make any difference? Thanks.
 

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I feel others have covered it plenty well but I'll specifically address the parts you mentioned.

First, absolutely do not get a front strut bar. You can change the OEM out for a carbon one (Shimmer night have some left) but you don't want the FP/TB ones. 1) you don't need more stiffness in that area 2) the add on bars don't do anything and are poor designs.

Second, the rear strut bar, if you really want it sure. But pull back the boot foam and look at the ridiculous lion's feet they welded to our cars. This is a good place to ponder what you're actually trying to accomplish.

As for RDU brace, it's the same. You can get a titanium one with an air scoop, but that has the benefit of lower weight. And is real pretty, but you absolutely don't "need" it and you definitely won't notice.

Why specifically do you want reduce body roll? There's no amount of aero you could put on these cars that would make sense for it. If you're looking for more grip, all else equal, you want to increase roll. If you're looking for a specific feel (slidey old school sports car), maybe you'd want a stiffer rear anti-roll bar. But if you do that you decrease the grip you have for gravel. Everything is a trade-off.

I have a gravel suspension from Reiger (was gonna do a write-up but I'm too lazy), and while yes you could tune the settings to make it acceptable for both, it would be a compromise for both as well. But even so, springs are different for gravel and tarmac; gravel springs are significantly softer. You could get slightly softer springs and go for a hard road kind of setup.

There's also no good way to mount the canisters in our engine bay, so unless you're happy zip tying them to the front headlights, you won't have easy access to adjust them every time you come off the gravel/tarmac.

As others have pointed out, your two goals are directly opposed to one another. Hardware setup wise, they literally want the opposite things. For gravel the travel is long and the springs are soft (too soft) and the oppo is oft desired for tarmac. And were not even talking about the other parts of the suspension. Many people want wider wheels for tarmac, while gravel you'd want to stick with 8. Tarmac you'd want slightly stiff anti-roll, gravel you'd want independent. Etc.

For me, gravel is priority, so I just decided to take it and make do on tarmac. The way the Reigers are built, I decided to remove my front anti-roll. Still vastly more grip than stock, although I'm waiting on wheels; wheel spacers play havoc with traction control.

Just some things to consider. I definitely second bigfatflip and nwnerd. You want to think about the big picture first so you don't go chasing your tail.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I feel others have covered it plenty well but I'll specifically address the parts you mentioned.

First, absolutely do not get a front strut bar. You can change the OEM out for a carbon one (Shimmer night have some left) but you don't want the FP/TB ones. 1) you don't need more stiffness in that area 2) the add on bars don't do anything and are poor designs.

Second, the rear strut bar, if you really want it sure. But pull back the boot foam and look at the ridiculous lion's feet they welded to our cars. This is a good place to ponder what you're actually trying to accomplish.

As for RDU brace, it's the same. You can get a titanium one with an air scoop, but that has the benefit of lower weight. And is real pretty, but you absolutely don't "need" it and you definitely won't notice.

Why specifically do you want reduce body roll? There's no amount of aero you could put on these cars that would make sense for it. If you're looking for more grip, all else equal, you want to increase roll. If you're looking for a specific feel (slidey old school sports car), maybe you'd want a stiffer rear anti-roll bar. But if you do that you decrease the grip you have for gravel. Everything is a trade-off.

I have a gravel suspension from Reiger (was gonna do a write-up but I'm too lazy), and while yes you could tune the settings to make it acceptable for both, it would be a compromise for both as well. But even so, springs are different for gravel and tarmac; gravel springs are significantly softer. You could get slightly softer springs and go for a hard road kind of setup.

There's also no good way to mount the canisters in our engine bay, so unless you're happy zip tying them to the front headlights, you won't have easy access to adjust them every time you come off the gravel/tarmac.

As others have pointed out, your two goals are directly opposed to one another. Hardware setup wise, they literally want the opposite things. For gravel the travel is long and the springs are soft (too soft) and the oppo is oft desired for tarmac. And were not even talking about the other parts of the suspension. Many people want wider wheels for tarmac, while gravel you'd want to stick with 8. Tarmac you'd want slightly stiff anti-roll, gravel you'd want independent. Etc.

For me, gravel is priority, so I just decided to take it and make do on tarmac. The way the Reigers are built, I decided to remove my front anti-roll. Still vastly more grip than stock, although I'm waiting on wheels; wheel spacers play havoc with traction control.

Just some things to consider. I definitely second bigfatflip and nwnerd. You want to think about the big picture first so you don't go chasing your tail.


Thank you for your input!!! I will definitely take this into consideration. Your right I am foolish to think both is possible. I didn't really realize they contradicted one another so much. I apologize for my inexperience. I will most likely focus on rally then. Thank you for your time!!!!
 
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