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I got news from the dealership.
Same issue like last time.
It seems the new sealant advised by Ford gave up after 2 years !


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I would too, the way you say you drive!
Not being able to use the car as specified by the manufacturer is not okay. To have an oil leak because you take it to the limit a few times a year should not be the norm.

This is a Focus RS and apparently the engine had some Cossworth touches. Had I known that I need to drive like miss daisy all the time I would not have purchased this vehicle.


They opened a new case with the factory. I should get some news on Monday. They will try to fix it again and I have my fingers crossed.

Truth be told, this whole situation makes me sad. I wanted an RS since university. It was a goal of mine in life. I grew up with fast Fords. When this RS is not leaking it is a monster and plenty of heads turn.


From what I hear in the rumour vine, only a small percentage which are not driven hard will no longer leak provided the owners do not forge the engine.

I am curious if a better sealant exists for the engine. Does the 2.3 ST have different materials ?

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Not being able to use the car as specified by the manufacturer is not okay. To have an oil leak because you take it to the limit a few times a year should not be the norm.

This is a Focus RS and apparently the engine had some Cossworth touches. Had I known that I need to drive like miss daisy all the time I would not have purchased this vehicle.


They opened a new case with the factory. I should get some news on Monday. They will try to fix it again and I have my fingers crossed.

Truth be told, this whole situation makes me sad. I wanted an RS since university. It was a goal of mine in life. I grew up with fast Fords. When this RS is not leaking it is a monster and plenty of heads turn.


From what I hear in the rumour vine, only a small percentage which are not driven hard will no longer leak provided the owners do not forge the engine.

I am curious if a better sealant exists for the engine. Does the 2.3 ST have different materials ?

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Hi all - long time lurker on the oil leak thread of this forum. I have a 2016 ST, which I know has a 2.0 and not the 2.3 like your RSs have, but there are numerous similarities including the timing cover. My car is stock and has the "banjo" line leak on the back of the block. However, I know it is the timing cover after cleaning the area and rechecking. I have another 15k of powertrain warranty, but have been hesitant to have the leak repaired given the amount of disassembly required, and the ****ty service I've had from my local dealer. They would likely just make the problem worse, and I have resigned myself to live with the leak until I can find a competent dealer.

Anyway, has anyone tried the mazda 2.3 timing cover gasket? It supposedly fits the ecoboost 2.0, and would likely fit the 2.3 ecoboost. Obviously not ford approved. And I have no idea if a gasket is better or worse than sealant, other than the fact a gasket is easier to install in such a tight space. I guess this would not help anything if it is a head gasket leak from a poor repair but based on the fact a lot of sts have had this leak, it could just be a poor timing cover reseal job. This thread from a mazda forum has some information on the gasket I am talking about. It is made by Cometic:
 

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Hi all - long time lurker on the oil leak thread of this forum. I have a 2016 ST, which I know has a 2.0 and not the 2.3 like your RSs have, but there are numerous similarities including the timing cover. My car is stock and has the "banjo" line leak on the back of the block. However, I know it is the timing cover after cleaning the area and rechecking. I have another 15k of powertrain warranty, but have been hesitant to have the leak repaired given the amount of disassembly required, and the ****ty service I've had from my local dealer. They would likely just make the problem worse, and I have resigned myself to live with the leak until I can find a competent dealer.

Anyway, has anyone tried the mazda 2.3 timing cover gasket? It supposedly fits the ecoboost 2.0, and would likely fit the 2.3 ecoboost. Obviously not ford approved. And I have no idea if a gasket is better or worse than sealant, other than the fact a gasket is easier to install in such a tight space. I guess this would not help anything if it is a head gasket leak from a poor repair but based on the fact a lot of sts have had this leak, it could just be a poor timing cover reseal job. This thread from a mazda forum has some information on the gasket I am talking about:
The issue is if its designed to use sealant then the thickness of the gasket presents a possible problem. I've gone the other way on numerous engines from a gasket to sealant and you need to take into account clearance issues for internal stuff because you no longer have the gasket thickness. The sealant is effective if done carefully and competently. It's actually a technically better system, more rigid seals better and you dont have gaskets that relax over time and leak.

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Not being able to use the car as specified by the manufacturer is not okay. To have an oil leak because you take it to the limit a few times a year should not be the norm.

This is a Focus RS and apparently the engine had some Cossworth touches. Had I known that I need to drive like miss daisy all the time I would not have purchased this vehicle.


They opened a new case with the factory. I should get some news on Monday. They will try to fix it again and I have my fingers crossed.

Truth be told, this whole situation makes me sad. I wanted an RS since university. It was a goal of mine in life. I grew up with fast Fords. When this RS is not leaking it is a monster and plenty of heads turn.


From what I hear in the rumour vine, only a small percentage which are not driven hard will no longer leak provided the owners do not forge the engine.

I am curious if a better sealant exists for the engine. Does the 2.3 ST have different materials ?

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I doubt this is the case as the vast majority of cars that have significant leaks are EX head gasket recall cars. What you say can be true in some cases esp if the crankcase breathing in poor and you build internal crankcase pressure which stresses seals and joints etc but that's generally on race engines that are at peak torque for long periods not road engines that are given WOT sporadically.
I had an engine in a bike that did road and track duty once and it would leak a tiny amount of coolant from the rear cylinder externally around the head joint at the exhaust port. Never an issue on the road but the extra heat generated at the track created a differential expansion at that point and caused a small weep. MLS head gaskets and attention to the head and barrel surface finish cured that.
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The issue is if its designed to use sealant then the thickness of the gasket presents a possible problem. I've gone the other way on numerous engines from a gasket to sealant and you need to take into account clearance issues for internal stuff because you no longer have the gasket thickness. The sealant is effective if done carefully and competently. It's actually a technically better system, more rigid seals better and you dont have gaskets that relax over time and leak.

Ciao
That makes sense. There has to be a reason they dont use a gasket in the first place. I wish these engines had a keyed crank - addressing a timing cover leak would be much more straightforward.
 

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That makes sense. There has to be a reason they dont use a gasket in the first place. I wish these engines had a keyed crank - addressing a timing cover leak would be much more straightforward.
I like replacing gaskets with sealant and replace gaskets everywhere I can. Yes a Keyed crank would be great as well as the cams. It's 100% about reducing the machining steps to save money but makes serious maintenance issue much harder and more expensive and increases the likelihood of mistakes.
I've said it before that I'd pay a premium price for an RS with keyed crank and cams, Carrillo rods, forged pistons and better machining. Ducati sell upgraded models with Ti rods, sand cast cases,Ti valves and bigger cams, why not car manufacturers. Make it the "club spec" version.

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The problem here is that the basic package does not function as required....
Shouldnt have to pay for an upgraded version.
I would just be happy if my car didnt leak oil with street driving.
 

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Jesus, yours is spotless compared to mine. How are you getting it that clean? It's a pain in the ass to try to do under the car on jack stands.
Thats how the dealer returned it.
Im guessing they would of used the method Phil mentioned above. It has definitely been cleaned with something more than degreaser as its dry and has zero residue anywhere.
 

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Assuming after a painful process my car is fixed again. If this is even possible given the numerous fixes in the past. How long will it last ?

This used to be a daily driver. Exemplary and loads of fun. Carving twisties and moderate speeds was amazing. Steering wheel feedback and agility on the front axle is what I always found appealing on fast Fords.

This is my new reality. I moved away from a daily driver to an occasional usage combined with Sunday joyrides. I have reached a point where I am worried that if I drive my car above a certain RPM level it might develop an oil leak. In 99% of cases the car does not exceed 3000 rpm and is not in mad boost.

The car has a hardcore maintenance schedule with regular appointments and Ford approved fluids. There has been no cent saved on executing said maintenance.

Even with all this monetary effort on my side, I have no worry free experience when I drive it. I avoid taking this car on regular long trips because of the hassle needed to have it fixed.

I want to be able to drive this car the full rev range without engine problems. Is it too much to ask ? I am not asking for every day red line and 155 mph speed but I want to enjoy my purchase a few times a year by driving it at moderate to high speeds with the occasional top speed run.

What annoys me even more is that I was lied too by the manufacturer. Moreover, they did the minimum to fix these cars and did not care of the reputations damage. The dealerships took most of the blame and while some mechanics needed to refresh their skills, others have fallen into the same disrepute because of a faulty package from factory.

At the end of the day, I am also an idiot. I put aside my skepticism and accepted that this car can be fixed. I was a naive customer blinded by my previous positive experience with 3 different Ford vehicles. I was also the most patient. They had my car for weeks at the time and I never complained or anything.


Not everyone buys a car with the thought of pulling out the engine and forging it with race grade components. What the f is that ! Seriously. The name “Rallye Sport” meant something but now it means that Ford has lost their touch to make a reliable package.




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Assuming after a painful process my car is fixed again. If this is even possible given the numerous fixes in the past. How long will it last ?

This used to be a daily driver. Exemplary and loads of fun. Carving twisties and moderate speeds was amazing. Steering wheel feedback and agility on the front axle is what I always found appealing on fast Fords.

This is my new reality. I moved away from a daily driver to an occasional usage combined with Sunday joyrides. I have reached a point where I am worried that if I drive my car above a certain RPM level it might develop an oil leak. In 99% of cases the car does not exceed 3000 rpm and is not in mad boost.

The car has a hardcore maintenance schedule with regular appointments and Ford approved fluids. There has been no cent saved on executing said maintenance.

Even with all this monetary effort on my side, I have no worry free experience when I drive it. I avoid taking this car on regular long trips because of the hassle needed to have it fixed.

I want to be able to drive this car the full rev range without engine problems. Is it too much to ask ? I am not asking for every day red line and 155 mph speed but I want to enjoy my purchase a few times a year by driving it at moderate to high speeds with the occasional top speed run.

What annoys me even more is that I was lied too by the manufacturer. Moreover, they did the minimum to fix these cars and did not care of the reputations damage. The dealerships took most of the blame and while some mechanics needed to refresh their skills, others have fallen into the same disrepute because of a faulty package from factory.

At the end of the day, I am also an idiot. I put aside my skepticism and accepted that this car can be fixed. I was a naive customer blinded by my previous positive experience with 3 different Ford vehicles. I was also the most patient. They had my car for weeks at the time and I never complained or anything.


Not everyone buys a car with the thought of pulling out the engine and forging it with race grade components. What the f is that ! Seriously. The name “Rallye Sport” meant something but now it means that Ford has lost their touch to make a reliable package.




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You have every right to expect a RS car to be functional and able to do what it was designed for.

Two issues -

1. The original gasket (B) has more rubber sealant towards the rear and front of the engine block. Did this provide a better seal/no oil leak?
2. The oil leaks are occurring over time and suggests that thermal expansion is causing the oil seepage.

I have also noticed near the o-brass rings there is oil black seepage which gets worse with time. The original B never had any oil seepage at this location nothing/zero from day 1.

The question therefore is why the new one leaks over time and why at the rear near the banjo bolt - thermal expansion weak point towards the rear?; poor thickness of rubber sealant on gasket C?

Here are some comparison photos of the original gasket versus the new one. Judge for yourself.


Original Gasket B original is on the right
Updated Gasket C 2017 -Mid on the left
Engine block to see the difference in location of gasket rubber at rear of engine.
342160





Regarding thermal expansion/lateral movement of the gasket, this photo is a god-sent from stratified auto. Thanks Alex.


Is the original gasket with more rubber sealant better at stopping lateral movement and oil leakage?
We will never know.
 
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You have every right to expect a RS car to be functional and able to do what it was designed for.

Two issues -

1. The original gasket (B) has more rubber sealant towards the rear and front of the engine block. Did this provide a better seal/no oil leak?
2. The oil leaks are occurring over time and suggests that thermal expansion is causing the oil seepage.

I have also noticed near the o-brass rings there is oil black seepage which gets worse with time. The original B never had any oil seepage at this location nothing/zero from day 1.

The question therefore is why the new one leaks over time and why at the rear near the banjo bolt - thermal expansion weak point towards the rear?; poor thickness of rubber sealant on gasket C?

Here are some comparison photos of the original gasket versus the new one. Judge for yourself.


Original Gasket B original is on the right
Updated Gasket C 2017 -Mid on the left
Engine block to see the difference in location of gasket rubber at rear of engine.
View attachment 342160




Regarding thermal expansion/lateral movement of the gasket, this photo is a god-sent from stratified auto. Thanks Alex.


Is the original gasket with more rubber sealant better at stopping lateral movement and oil leakage?
We will never know.
It is clear that the clamping force on all removable parts is not what it used to be since the recall was performed. I mean my timing chain cover seal keeps giving up. My boost values are factory compliant so it should not have any impact. Okay I got plenty of torque. Can this destroy the seal in time ??


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The right answer might be pulling the motor and getting it properly machined and built, like @lucky phil has said. It's unfortunate that we have to do this on a nearly brand new motor, but Ford has washed their hands of this car. Hopefully @bad|teddy has built enough good will with his dealer to get them to do the work properly this time around, without having to ask, as the labor costs already spent in maintenance at dealer prices probably would have paid for an engine R&R. A proper engine build is in my future, but I haven't yet decided if I'll buy a prepped long block and keep my original one on an engine stand somewhere just in case.

Mine has the seepage near the brass ring too and I only have 17k miles. Nothing from the timing cover yet, knock on wood.
 

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Having discussed with a race engineer regarding my problem and looking at other solutions it was concluded that , indeed, the nature of this engine is at fault for this issue.

The pressures are not to blame neither the high RPM scenario. Heat is the main culprit. With parts expanding and contracting we have an effect that leads to a weakening of the materials used to create these seals.

There is a slim chance to have my car fixed but this would require the usage of a different sealant which will have all the relevant properties. It should flex with the engine and hold the seal when cold as well. This TA-30 works well but when exposed to hours of heat cycles it will no longer follow the movement of the engine. Now the clamping force has to be increased in the timing chain cover to create a better fit.

A question to those who have forged their engine or went for a full rebuild. What exactly are you guys using as sealant ? Moreover bolts and screws ?



PS: this issue can occur also in the GOLF R and GTI. They all use similar techniques but for some inexplicable reason the accountants decided to design this RS engine and said to hell with those buying it. No sane engineer would accept such a design knowing full well that once opened by the dealership there will be hell to pay.

I am not willing to continue this adventure and limp from fix to fix. I will know more next week.


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I bet if they torqued the blocks HOT it would fix this ****.
. These people are brilliant. From my research our block would benefit greatly from this method.
 

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I bet if they torqued the blocks HOT it would fix this ****.
. These people are brilliant. From my research our block would benefit greatly from this method.
No it wouldn't help. Composite head gaskets and copper need re torquing because they relax a little bit initially with heat cycling. MLS head gaskets like the RS uses dont need this because of the raised crimping around the sealing areas and spring steel or stainless steel material provides a non collapsing sealing area maintaining the seal.
If you torque the head bolts for instance hot when the block and head material is expanded then when it cools all the fasteners will be under torqued.
These people are actually seriously misguided. The term "heat cycling" is a bit of a coverall statement.Heating up and cooling the engine with boiler water in a cyclic fashion doesn't replicate running the engine through heat cycles. Apart from achieving "bulk coolant temperature" you haven't actually achieved anything else that affects the settling of the gasket like combustion pressure affects and temperature gradient affects on the block. If you look at the last image in post #273 you can see what happens to the block and head temp at critical areas that affect the gasket settling and you dont achieve this buy circulating hot water through the block. You also dont get the effect of combustion pressure and heat and its affect.

Ciao
 

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Having discussed with a race engineer regarding my problem and looking at other solutions it was concluded that , indeed, the nature of this engine is at fault for this issue.

The pressures are not to blame neither the high RPM scenario. Heat is the main culprit. With parts expanding and contracting we have an effect that leads to a weakening of the materials used to create these seals.

There is a slim chance to have my car fixed but this would require the usage of a different sealant which will have all the relevant properties. It should flex with the engine and hold the seal when cold as well. This TA-30 works well but when exposed to hours of heat cycles it will no longer follow the movement of the engine. Now the clamping force has to be increased in the timing chain cover to create a better fit.

A question to those who have forged their engine or went for a full rebuild. What exactly are you guys using as sealant ? Moreover bolts and screws ?



PS: this issue can occur also in the GOLF R and GTI. They all use similar techniques but for some inexplicable reason the accountants decided to design this RS engine and said to hell with those buying it. No sane engineer would accept such a design knowing full well that once opened by the dealership there will be hell to pay.

I am not willing to continue this adventure and limp from fix to fix. I will know more next week.


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I dont agree with the "design flaw" theory your engineer has. I've been working on many different designs of engines for the around the last 30 years when sealing began to replace gaskets and the RS engine doesn't exhibit any issues with regards to sealing faces or design. The only exception is the head gasket which uses bonded sealing strips around the area that require sealing which I'm not totally happy about. Performance aftermarket and all the factory MLS gaskets I've used cover the whole gasket surface with pressure sensitive sealant not just sealing strips around the openings and bore. I suspect this is done for either cost reasons or in search of better heat transfer from the head to the block and coolant gallery, maybe both. I've seen the old style B gaskets weep oil as well so it's not the new gasket compared to the original.
Apart from that it's down to quality of machining ( MLS gaskets require a much higher degree of surface finish than old composite gaskets) and the competence of mechanics that do the work.I can see that in many many cases the deck and head machining isn't up to scratch just from images it's that bad.
There's also a reason hand built race and blue printed engines are assembled in a Clean Room,because that's the level of professionalism care and cleanliness it takes to put an engine together and bee 100% sure it's going to be right. Add to that low skilled unpractised mechanics at a dealership under the time clock and just wanting to get it done working in a very confined space under the hood with crap everywhere in a cold draughty workshop and you end up with a leaker. No great theory's are required to figure this out it's all about just basic good engineering and engineering practices.

Ciao
 
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