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Discussion Starter #1
I need help,

I already have two car payments (2015 Mustang GT Performance Pack and Wife's 2014 ST).

I NEED a new RS for a daily driver as Mustang cannot fit my two car seats very well and I've been begging for AWD Turbo Ford since the mid 1990's. I would be a total **** if I complained this long (Since Escort Cosworth RS) and didn't get one when they finally sold one. Mustang and Wife's ST are not going anywhere.

I have five other cars and a motorcycle that I am considering selling, so help me out.

2005 Buell XB12R ($4000)
1983 Porsche 944 (maybe worth $5,000)
1979 Mustang (maybe worth $100 and a handshake)
1998 Nascar F-150, but De-Nascarized ($5000)
2006 Focus ST ($5000)
1994 Land Rover Defender 90 (worth anywhere from $35,000 to $55,000, very rare and prices range greatly, no KBB or NADA)

I have been planning on selling the Buell, 944, Mustang, and Focus ST to help pay for the RS, but have recently been leaning towards just selling the Defender and dropping cash on the table. I love the Defender and is somewhat of a heirloom between me and my father. He cosigned for it for me in 2001 and we have been taking turns driving it since. I really don't want to sell the F-150 because I know I would regret it. It is just as much fun as any other car I have owned and a home owner needs a truck plain and simple, but would sell it if I had to.

Now, would I be able to get it at or below sticker price if I paid in cash? If so, I might go that route. Otherwise I would be rushing to sell all other vehicles (pain in the ass) just to get about half the cost of a new RS. My problem is my son and father would be upset if I sold the Defender, as would I, but I'm not sure selling the other cars and getting less than $20k would get me the car. I would still have to finance another $20k and I can't have another car payment. I could possibly sell some other things and get a lot closer but I really don't want to sell anything to get it.

Focus community, steer me one way or the other...
 

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I would dump the Defender and the Mustang and the ST and the "Donor cycle". There is always a need for a truck at sometime so good call there. I doubt you will be able to get a RS at below sticker just because you pay cash but I could be wrong. Also becoming emotionally attached to a car is not always a good thing (Defender). I drove nothing but MR2's for 21yrs but it was time to move on and I do not regret my decision.

Good luck.
 

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Sell everything but the Mustang (if you really need), Defender, and whatever your wife needs. I think you'd regret selling the Defender by the way you talk about it.

Curious if you'll care for the Mustang GT if you daily an RS.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Opinion---The 2015 Mustang is a drivers car while the RS is not. The RS is a computer controlled masterpiece, tons of fun I'm sure, but not a drivers car and will never drift like a Mustang. I've owned everything from FWD (Civic Si/Sentra SE-R/Focus ST) to RWD (944/968/240sx/350Z) to AWD (EVO 9 MR/Stealth RT/Had 3 friends with STI and drove them plenty) and feel that for pure fun and driving experience, nothing beats high horsepower RWD, nothing puts a smile on my face more, but my favorite street car was always my EVO (Sold to get Mustang) so I LOVE AWD Turbo cars as well. Plus the only two auto-related motorsports I really care about are WRC/Rally and D1/Drift (Both exhibit pure vehicle dynamics and control and let the asses hang out) and I figure why not have one of each type.

For any Buell Haters? Who are these people? The Buell XB is the most fun bike I've ever been on and I've been on a lot including Euros and many, many, many cookie cutter Japanese bikes. Nothing 'flicks' better around the streets and nothing has the torque. I have another Buell as well that is not for sale. I will always have at least one in my Garage.

I will go crazy if I do not figure out what I need to do to get an RS...
 

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The most widely accepted understanding of the term "driver's car" usually refers to a vehicle that offers the purest, most direct, and most rewarding driving experience. It’s a term often confused with the concept of “fun to drive”, which the Mustang and Focus RS would certainly embody, but so do a host of other cars that couldn’t conceivably be considered driver’s cars.

The traditional driver’s car breed includes the Miata, the S2000, the E30 M3, the FR-S/BRZ, the Elise, the Cayman, and just about every air-cooled 911. This ilk is typically lightweight, agile, has skinny tires, and offers little in the way of computer interference. At the opposite end of the spectrum, you find cars that are unbelievably capable (and undeniably fun), but which rely on big engines, big tires, and computer algorithms to achieve the desired result. The experience is one where the driver isn’t as involved in coaxing performance out of the vehicle, and rather, relies on power, grip, ones, and zeroes. Obvious examples include the R35 GTR, the Corvette, the 991 Turbo, etc.

Now, reasonable minds will differ when asked where exactly the Mustang and RS fall on this continuum. The manual-only argument for the RS is a strong one, but whether the active AWD system is doing all the work for the driver or reacting predictably to driver inputs remains to be seen. The Mustang’s switch to independent-rear-suspension and propensity to hang its tail out is a strong argument, but there’s no way to ignore this pony car’s massive footprint. In the end, I think they both do what Ford intends them to do. For the RS, that means taking a practical 5-door hatch and making it as bonkers as possible. For the Mustang, that means taking a traditional, large, American muscle car platform and making it as competent as possible.
 

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The most widely accepted understanding of the term "driver's car" usually refers to a vehicle that offers the purest, most direct, and most rewarding driving experience. It’s a term often confused with the concept of “fun to drive”, which the Mustang and Focus RS would certainly embody, but so do a host of other cars that couldn’t conceivably be considered driver’s cars.

The traditional driver’s car breed includes the Miata, the S2000, the E30 M3, the FR-S/BRZ, the Elise, the Cayman, and just about every air-cooled 911. This ilk is typically lightweight, agile, has skinny tires, and offers little in the way of computer interference. At the opposite end of the spectrum, you find cars that are unbelievably capable (and undeniably fun), but which rely on big engines, big tires, and computer algorithms to achieve the desired result. The experience is one where the driver isn’t as involved in coaxing performance out of the vehicle, and rather, relies on power, grip, ones, and zeroes. Obvious examples include the R35 GTR, the Corvette, the 991 Turbo, etc.

Now, reasonable minds will differ when asked where exactly the Mustang and RS fall on this continuum. The manual-only argument for the RS is a strong one, but whether the active AWD system is doing all the work for the driver or reacting predictably to driver inputs remains to be seen. The Mustang’s switch to independent-rear-suspension and propensity to hang its tail out is a strong argument, but there’s no way to ignore this pony car’s massive footprint. In the end, I think they both do what Ford intends them to do. For the RS, that means taking a practical 5-door hatch and making it as bonkers as possible. For the Mustang, that means taking a traditional, large, American muscle car platform and making it as competent as possible.
Nice write-up soon-to-be counselor!.


Okay then maybe the earlier Vipers (the ones with just brute power and no electronic assist) would qualify or maybe the 2015 Challenger Hellcat 6-speed would qualify because they are almost too much car to handle.

70 442 qnd 83 280ZX 2+2 turbo both sucked as driver's cars. The 442 was from the muscle era: big engine, nothing else, no brake upgrades and no suspension changes. Would go fast in a straight line, but hard to stop or drive in curves.

I had an 85 Honda CRX Si and it was a fun little car. Even though it only had 91 Hp is felt a lot faster and was very responsive because of the low weight, 1890 lbs.

I had a 95 Integra GSR and after adding cold air intake (make a significant difference on this car) and exhaust, it was really a fun driver's car for a FWD .

I had an E36 M3 and while it was fun it was not the driver's car either the S 2000, the GSR were or the ST is.

The S2000 is a great drivers car. However, in 2006 the engine was increased to 2.2 and the RPM lowered to 8,000 and VSA was added ( can be disabled). Add a couple of minor mods and an Invidia Exhaust and it is a blast to drive. However, the ST is my preferred car , especially in hot summers or colder winters. You have to drive the S2000 like you stole to really get full benefit of its fun factor. The ST is just ready all the time with instant fun power. The ST is a great daily driver car and I anticipate the RS will be even better for a fun daily driver.

May be a Mustang is a driver's car especially higher performance ones. I have test driven them briefly, but have never owned one.

Cheers YMMV,

wcroswell
 

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The traditional driver’s car breed includes the Miata, the S2000, the E30 M3, the FR-S/BRZ, the Elise, the Cayman, and just about every air-cooled 911.
I'm not sure the FR-S/BRZ twins live up to the hype to be included in this list, I would put the 80s Collora GTS on it before either of them. Aside from that gripe it sounds about right, especially the remarks on the "S2200".
 

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A drivers car to me is specifically one that works with you in every way. All the important things to a driver are there. This could be anything from being able to read the gauges quickly and accurately, to the feel and confidence the shifter gives, or the predictability of the clutch, or the seating position and sight line of apexes. The easiest way to tell a good drivers car is that when you push it, it works with you and when you drive the vehicle correctly it lets you know, the same if you don't. Communication, feedback, and predictability are all confidence inspiring. The vehicle should exhibit amazing balance between power, traction, stability, driver enjoyment and confidence.

In terms of electronic aids and so forth, I'm not really sure I would say they are a handy cap as taking away from driver enjoyment or give the feeling that the vehicle is driving you. The same argument can be made for power brakes or power steering, drive and Ariel Atom or an Exige and you can see how very few systems can compete with direct steering, or the Atoms brake pedal feel. Since we are talking about the RS and AWD, the point of AWD is to do just that drive all wheels. An LSD does the same thing just no where near the amount of control the RS will have for TQ split between the wheels. I would also say the same in terms of TQ vectoring with the brakes. If you are on loose surface and trying to rotate the car you rely on weight transfer more then steering, by braking the inside front wheel you are using the most efficient way to achieve the same result and there for have to use less brake to achieve it. The computer can do things we as drivers can't in terms of power and braking for individual wheels, this makes the vehicle a lot more agile. In terms of a good drivers car I would say the best systems are the ones you can't feel, like the chronic leap of T/C systems to what they are now. When journalists first tested the C7 they asked the engineers why they didn't really feel the diff working, he replied if you feel it then its too slow and not engineered correctly, this systems need to feel natural and work with you, and if you are in control of the vehicle they shouldn't intervene. The 458 is a great example of this. A bad ESC system could ruin a good drivers car, the same couldn't be said for a good system making a bad drivers car good. A drivers car is about the whole package and one is only as good as its weakest link.
 
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