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Discussion Starter #21
I did some very quick testing last weekend in between errands and I think we need to lengthen the decay time and also soften both front and rear shocks together to really get the front to load up. I plan to do more testing and actually log some data so more to come.
Good points.

I hope to get more driving in as well!

I don't AX but I do have a parking area I'll test some low speed turning
 

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I don't notice any difference . . .

My tune activates LC, so I don't notice the DSC affecting it

I also never had a problem with stock brake dive
The DSC Controller has a built in "launch control" feature for the dampers. It will set the rears soft and fronts stiff for weight transfer. Check out Controller – Porsche Plug N Play | DSC Sport
starting at 3:20

I was more curious about your flipping the fronts and rears on the accel table, and if you noticed any difference as compared to the stock settings.
 

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I like the analysis from everyone. I just thought I'd chuck in what DSC says on their website about the RS map.

Note, I think this implies it is possible to run 2000ma to 0ma as the extreme range of current settings. I need to make a 2000ma everywhere calibration table, plus a 1900 and an 1800 and switch between them to see if this is true at the high current range. The lowest I have seen on any maps is 200ma, from DSC. I'm still laid up so it will be a long time before I can do these tests.

Does The DSC Sport Allow Softness And Stiffness Settings Beyond Those Of Stock?

Yes. Stock Normal mode is 20% stiffness. Stock Sport mode is 80% stiffness. DSC Normal mode is a range of 5% to 100% stiffness. DSC Sport mode is a range of 20% to 100%. DSC is active so it uses those ranges in each mode to the level of load to command individual shocks.
Some advantages of our standard map are:
1) during cornering the front inside damper is always softer to allow climbing up to inside track curbing without upsetting the chassis.
2) during hard braking the front damper compression and rear damper rebound increase to help reduce dive to improve front and rear tire grip.
3) during initial cornering the damping starts out soft and then stiffen up relative to the amount of g-force to load the tires more progressively.
 

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I did some very quick testing last weekend in between errands and I think we need to lengthen the decay time and also soften both front and rear shocks together to really get the front to load up. I plan to do more testing and actually log some data so more to come.
Really interesting, Could you let us know the brake table settings you used? I was wondering about the decay time, because it couples with the brake table settings, obviously the softer the faster the dive. I was also wondering if we should go softer all round as you suggest.

My only concern is if we end up getting suspension pumping, or whatever it is called. Imagine if we do something that triggers this in quick succession, say R1 into 50 L1 into 50 R1 or something, which is maybe likely on dirt but not on track. Would we end up with accumulating the suspension movement and never get back to the normal position before next application. At the extreme, we might end up with a huge amount of rake and almost full extension on rear and full compression on front, this would get interesting? It would be interesting to try this in a straight line on a big safe car park or something and see what it does, with hard acceleration then hard brake for each 50m (or whatever exacerbates it best).

Just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
I like the analysis from everyone. I just thought I'd chuck in what DSC says on their website about the RS map.

Note, I think this implies it is possible to run 2000ma to 0ma as the extreme range of current settings. I need to make a 2000ma everywhere calibration table, plus a 1900 and an 1800 and switch between them to see if this is true at the high current range. The lowest I have seen on any maps is 200ma, from DSC. I'm still laid up so it will be a long time before I can do these tests.

Does The DSC Sport Allow Softness And Stiffness Settings Beyond Those Of Stock?

Yes. Stock Normal mode is 20% stiffness. Stock Sport mode is 80% stiffness. DSC Normal mode is a range of 5% to 100% stiffness. DSC Sport mode is a range of 20% to 100%. DSC is active so it uses those ranges in each mode to the level of load to command individual shocks.
Some advantages of our standard map are:
1) during cornering the front inside damper is always softer to allow climbing up to inside track curbing without upsetting the chassis.
2) during hard braking the front damper compression and rear damper rebound increase to help reduce dive to improve front and rear tire grip.
3) during initial cornering the damping starts out soft and then stiffen up relative to the amount of g-force to load the tires more progressively.
All true, but the controllers - esp the earlier versions - may have an under spec'd power supply. Thus 1900ma is the max recommended juice.

Out of range values are fine for lower voltages, though hazardous to the controller at higher voltages

Heal up fast - we need your seat time feedback
 

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Hazardous? What happens at high current, 2000 ma? Does it cause controller fail or overheat. I didn't know that it caused any physical problems.

I'm hanging out to drive again,. Another three weeks to cast off and first weight bearing, then six weeks more in a boot.
 

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I've been spending some time with the Tractive dampers on the as-shipped controller map from DSC - update 3/16/20. Trying to develop my feel for the car with this config. as the baseline before I start tweaking.

Looking into the tuning now and have a question that perhaps those of you more experienced can answer.

Why does the 3/16/20 file have the rear shocks calibrated from 1500ma to 400ma when the help section states that the operating range of the Tractive dampers is "1900mA is full soft and 500mA is full stiff?" Why have the calibration setting at 400ma when the lowest stated is 500ma?

I'll ask DSC directly, but thought one of you may have had this question already.
I think that DSC reduced the current because of the full stiff issues. When receiving my latest controller, it had the file you mentioned loaded to reduce the chances of a full stiff event. When initially speaking with Jeremy about it, he was mentioning that we are cruising around at 2000mAh for more time than intended, which was causing issues. He wasn't excited when he saw that I had 1800mAh loaded as full soft. This car is uncomfortable at 1600mAh, maybe even worse than stock IMHO.

I like the analysis from everyone. I just thought I'd chuck in what DSC says on their website about the RS map.

Note, I think this implies it is possible to run 2000ma to 0ma as the extreme range of current settings. I need to make a 2000ma everywhere calibration table, plus a 1900 and an 1800 and switch between them to see if this is true at the high current range. The lowest I have seen on any maps is 200ma, from DSC. I'm still laid up so it will be a long time before I can do these tests.

Does The DSC Sport Allow Softness And Stiffness Settings Beyond Those Of Stock?

Yes. Stock Normal mode is 20% stiffness. Stock Sport mode is 80% stiffness. DSC Normal mode is a range of 5% to 100% stiffness. DSC Sport mode is a range of 20% to 100%. DSC is active so it uses those ranges in each mode to the level of load to command individual shocks.
Some advantages of our standard map are:
1) during cornering the front inside damper is always softer to allow climbing up to inside track curbing without upsetting the chassis.
2) during hard braking the front damper compression and rear damper rebound increase to help reduce dive to improve front and rear tire grip.
3) during initial cornering the damping starts out soft and then stiffen up relative to the amount of g-force to load the tires more progressively.
You don't need to make a full soft map for testing. If you use the "A" command where you would use the "I" command to check for faults, it will command full soft (probably whatever you have commanded at 0% in the Calibration page). I haven't used it extensively, but I expect that it would last for at least one drive cycle or worst case until you reset the board.

Regarding the bolded part above, I'm pretty sure that's true for the Golf R (and likely other vehicles). The stock RS controller and damper setup is like a light switch, full soft (off) on all modes except track (on, 500mAh). You can run the Tractive dampers at 0 mAh, but I wouldn't recommend it. Your tires become the dampers at that point.
 

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I think that DSC reduced the current because of the full stiff issues. When receiving my latest controller, it had the file you mentioned loaded to reduce the chances of a full stiff event. When initially speaking with Jeremy about it, he was mentioning that we are cruising around at 2000mAh for more time than intended, which was causing issues. He wasn't excited when he saw that I had 1800mAh loaded as full soft. This car is uncomfortable at 1600mAh, maybe even worse than stock IMHO.

You don't need to make a full soft map for testing. If you use the "A" command where you would use the "I" command to check for faults, it will command full soft (probably whatever you have commanded at 0% in the Calibration page). I haven't used it extensively, but I expect that it would last for at least one drive cycle or worst case until you reset the board.

Regarding the bolded part above, I'm pretty sure that's true for the Golf R (and likely other vehicles). The stock RS controller and damper setup is like a light switch, full soft (off) on all modes except track (on, 500mAh). You can run the Tractive dampers at 0 mAh, but I wouldn't recommend it. Your tires become the dampers at that point.
Here is something I wrote in a different thread. I was trying to work out a standard shock equivalent. Probably the most interesting thing is the graph. It looks to me that standard is around 1150ma. Anyway, reasoning below.

Emulating Standard shocks
To understand where this sits against the standard suspension I wanted to know how to set up the Tractive shocks to best emulate the standard shocks as a reference point. This was an interesting exercise. DSC is highly critical of the 'nose' (transition from low to high speed damping) on the standard shocks so this cannot be emulated. However I reckon that the standard suspension is probably best matched by DSC currents into tractive suspension as follows (i.e. if we just try to emulate standard)

  • Soft maybe 1150 ma
  • Hard maybe 1000 ma
I took this off a screenshot from the DSC official video ‘DSC Sport Focus RS Shock Dyno Demonstration (Tractive Suspension)

341255


Note, the two solid black lines are the standard shock dyno curves.
 

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I think that DSC reduced the current because of the full stiff issues. When receiving my latest controller, it had the file you mentioned loaded to reduce the chances of a full stiff event. When initially speaking with Jeremy about it, he was mentioning that we are cruising around at 2000mAh for more time than intended, which was causing issues. He wasn't excited when he saw that I had 1800mAh loaded as full soft.
Is Jeremy DSC? I wonder how the controller works? It is small with no heat sinks. It is probably pulse width modulated. If it was an analog drive it would get too hot. If we assume a solenoid impedance which allows 2000ma at 12v we dissipate maximum heat at 6v and 1000ma internally ... 6watts. This gives 24 watts dissipation if done analogue for 1000ma at each shock.

Has anyone run full soft and measured dsc controller box temperature? That would be interesting. If it is pulse width modulated with a chopper then maximum dissipation is at 2000ma as it passes this through the on resistance of the chopper chip. It would be badly underspecified if it could run 1800ma and not 2000ma however! Same for the solenoid in the shock. Is it really that delicate/poorly designed?

Has anyone had a DSC controller hardware fail?? If they really have, what does this say about the controller software which allows setting of excessive current values. I might see if I can open the controller box easily and check the chipset spec, Actually, can anyone easily take a photo of the controller board from both sides where the part numbers are readable. I am so damn immobile with my leg and live on the third floor, no lift, yay. Good exercise usually.
 

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The DSC Controller has a built in "launch control" feature for the dampers. It will set the rears soft and fronts stiff for weight transfer. Check out Controller – Porsche Plug N Play | DSC Sport
starting at 3:20

I was more curious about your flipping the fronts and rears on the accel table, and if you noticed any difference as compared to the stock settings.
If DeanHart didn't make changes to the Accel table then you may be looking at some changes I made that I forwarded with the GForce tables. I did some testing during low traction conditions (wet roads) between the DSC weight transfer launch strategy and the reverse of that. What I observed was that I got slight front wheel spin with the DSC strategy as the front lifted and weight shifted to the rear. I did not get the same wheel spin by stiffening the rear and keeping the nose from lifting. This falls in line with slow motion videos I've seen of the RS launches where it's clear the front wheels are doing most of the work. In the dry, high grip, conditions you may not notice much. I'll admit though, my testing was not rigorous so YMMV.

Edit: LOL, it's clear I need a grand open track where I can test all this stuff. I'm limited in what I can do, especially with all that is going on.
 

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OMG! You guys are great. Hope we can all benefit for the passion of our cars, driving in general and the spirit of community. Thanks for all the sharing here. I don't have the DSC yet but will, and will be on here as I use diff maps and create my own. All good dudes! Keep up the good work. Lord knows Ford didn't. Really too bad. This car could have been so bad ass in the future out of the factory with years of development!
 

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@RoughRoadDD Jeremy is one of the guys at DSC who deals with the RS. Harris is the other RS guy, IIRC he has an RS.

@misterchonger thanks for the info on the accel tables. I've been in a situation more than once in the wet where accelerating from a stop at a leisurely pace going uphill I would lift a front tire and would spin it until the RDU kicked in.

I used electronic connector cleaner and conditioner where the dampers connect to the stock wiring again yesterday, along with my fancy switch to reset the controller. So far so good, but I haven't driven the car enough since to know for sure.
 

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@misterchonger thanks for the info on the accel tables. I've been in a situation more than once in the wet where accelerating from a stop at a leisurely pace going uphill I would lift a front tire and would spin it until the RDU kicked in.
Glad to hear your similar experiences. DSC's accel tables have the rear squat during launch and acceleration. You may like the reversed tables better. What I use now for the accel tables is actually an equal command to all shocks. To me, that felt like the least amount of weight shifting

341274
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Discussion Starter #35
Hazardous? What happens at high current, 2000 ma? Does it cause controller fail or overheat. I didn't know that it caused any physical problems.

I'm hanging out to drive again,. Another three weeks to cast off and first weight bearing, then six weeks more in a boot.
From Tom Chan from DSC on Rennlist: 'dangerous to the controller'
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Glad to hear your similar experiences. DSC's accel tables have the rear squat during launch and acceleration. You may like the reversed tables better. What I use now for the accel tables is actually an equal command to all shocks. To me, that felt like the least amount of weight shifting

View attachment 341274 .
I don't AX so launching is not a priority.

I prefer no accel interference, just to clear up what's going on with what

The above map has the accel influence 'zero'd out' as the target active speed is 5mph. This table 'dies' at speeds above 6mph

This was not my change - but I like it!
@misterchonger
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Is Jeremy DSC? I wonder how the controller works? It is small with no heat sinks. It is probably pulse width modulated. If it was an analog drive it would get too hot. If we assume a solenoid impedance which allows 2000ma at 12v we dissipate maximum heat at 6v and 1000ma internally ... 6watts. This gives 24 watts dissipation if done analogue for 1000ma at each shock.

Has anyone run full soft and measured dsc controller box temperature? That would be interesting. If it is pulse width modulated with a chopper then maximum dissipation is at 2000ma as it passes this through the on resistance of the chopper chip. It would be badly underspecified if it could run 1800ma and not 2000ma however! Same for the solenoid in the shock. Is it really that delicate/poorly designed?

Has anyone had a DSC controller hardware fail?? If they really have, what does this say about the controller software which allows setting of excessive current values. I might see if I can open the controller box easily and check the chipset spec, Actually, can anyone easily take a photo of the controller board from both sides where the part numbers are readable. I am so damn immobile with my leg and live on the third floor, no lift, yay. Good exercise usually.
All good points - controller gets 'quite' hot. I measured it once but don't have that figure. Oops.

I'm on my third controller. Porsche forum just reported a failure

'Vette early controllers had power supply issues - that gave random errors equivalent to our ongoing DMSU issues. These were quickly upgraded.

Super easy to open the controller box . . .
 

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Thanks for info on dsc risk. I have now contacted ds direct and will see if I can get comment. Ill follow this up to ensure it is clarified. I wonder if it is batch specific and was fixed?

@DeanHart What happened when the controller died, did you have to pay for replacement? If it is used as intended and with tractive suspension then failure is not fit for purpose.

When I'm healthy again I'll instrument the box and check temperatures.

Btw, I'm happy to set up and manage a Dropbox where we can share files and classify as to purpose. The sort of use I am thinking of is we might have folders to show intent, say ready2go, road, sport, track, drift, autocross, gravel, experiments/testing. Each file would have a short document with explanation and feedback. Ready2Go being config you could load with all modes covered and drive away. The others folders each providing a config to slot in so you can roll your own ready2go, or do testing.

What does everyone think?
 

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Discussion Starter #39
@RoughRoadDD

No, all was handled under warranty and replacements shipped before I returned my units. Super helpfull. Diagnosis was done remotely with excellent support from DSC. Note that you may log the data from the system.

I use dropbox . . . good idea

Surprising how much time the testing of changes takes!
 
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