Ford Focus RS Forum banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
394 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I feel somewhat responsible for this cock up, so I'm helping my friend clear this issue.

He removed his clutch line to get rid of restrictors, and maybe 40ml of fluid drained out before he plugged the online back in. They used the two person method to bleed, pumped the clutch pedal 5 times or so, and opened the bleed valve. However with a foot slip the pedal was released, for whatever reason he opened the brake reservoir, and then pedal went flaccid.

So they went and got a vacuum pump, and have been pumping all night but no fluid has come out, and the fluid level in the reservoir is not moving.

No clutch issues before, do they just need a pressure bleeder?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,107 Posts
Sounds like you guys have air in the system. How full did you guys fill the brake reservoir while pumping the clutch? From what I've read, the clutch compartment of the brake fluid reservoir is up pretty high, so you pretty much have to have it filled to the brim when bleeding or run the risk of sucking air into the system.

I just bled my brakes & clutch recently using my Motive power bleeder and had the brake fluid reservoir filled to the brim and no issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
394 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I'm gonna take a guess and say there's ONLY air in the system. Lol

It seems they didn't add any fluid, but the fluid hasn't dipped from the max line at all. I'm assuming the vacuum pumping removed what was left in the clutch line, but failed to pull any new fluid into the system.

I'm gonna gift him a pressure bleeder. Hopefully that will force fluid into the system and allow bleeding.

If the pressure bleeder puts fluid in the system a responsive pedal should return, right?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,361 Posts
The workshop manual says to use a pressure bleeder. Then pump the clutch pedal 5 times, top off, then try to shift into reverse. If it's excessively noisy, repeat.

On that note, shifting into reverse is noisy/chunky/clunky for me. Maybe I need to bleed my clutch...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
394 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
The workshop manual says to use a pressure bleeder. Then pump the clutch pedal 5 times, top off, then try to shift into reverse. If it's excessively noisy, repeat.

On that note, shifting into reverse is noisy/chunky/clunky for me. Maybe I need to bleed my clutch...
I have the manual. Not really much help when you can't pump the pedal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
826 Posts
I have the manual. Not really much help when you can't pump the pedal.

you pull the peddle up and continue but you need to either use a pump to suck on clutch nippel or be 2 people and you keep it pressed and someone opens a closes to.let air out. you pull it up and keep repeating
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
394 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
you pull the peddle up and continue but you need to either use a pump to suck on clutch nippel or be 2 people and you keep it pressed and someone opens a closes to.let air out. you pull it up and keep repeating
Noted. Vacuum pump, pumping vigorously, had zero effect. I'm gonna buy my friend a pressure bleeder because I feel partly responsible for this. Lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,048 Posts
Here how you bleed a clutch or brakes for that matter. One person in the car on the clutch pedal and 1 person on the slave cylinder bleeder. person in the car pushes the pedal down while the person on the bleeder has it open. As the pedal nears the floor call "near" and the bleeder person shuts off the bleeder and say"up". The person in the car allows the pedal to come up and says"up" when it returns.The person on the bleeder says "down" and the person in the car says "pushing". The bleeder guy waits for the pushing call and opens the bleed nipple. Repeat.

Key point is wait for the "pushing" call before you open the bleeder and the "near" call to shut off. That way you dont get air sucked back into the system. Keep the reservoir topped up.

Ciao
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
394 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Sounds like you guys have air in the system. How full did you guys fill the brake reservoir while pumping the clutch? From what I've read, the clutch compartment of the brake fluid reservoir is up pretty high, so you pretty much have to have it filled to the brim when bleeding or run the risk of sucking air into the system.

I just bled my brakes & clutch recently using my Motive power bleeder and had the brake fluid reservoir filled to the brim and no issues.

Kind of tangential question. As we know enthusiasts are more about hypotheticals than reality, but some people online say pressure bleeders without a bladder separating fluid and air will dissolve water and air into the brake fluid when pressurized.

My Google Fu is hampered here but just going off my gut (which says no), but is 15 psi enough to be dissolving a non-trivial amount of water and gasses?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,048 Posts
Kind of tangential question. As we know enthusiasts are more about hypotheticals than reality, but some people online say pressure bleeders without a bladder separating fluid and air will dissolve water and air into the brake fluid when pressurized.

My Google Fu is hampered here but just going off my gut (which says no), but is 15 psi enough to be dissolving a non-trivial amount of water and gasses?
Complete rubbish

Ciao
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,107 Posts
Kind of tangential question. As we know enthusiasts are more about hypotheticals than reality, but some people online say pressure bleeders without a bladder separating fluid and air will dissolve water and air into the brake fluid when pressurized.

My Google Fu is hampered here but just going off my gut (which says no), but is 15 psi enough to be dissolving a non-trivial amount of water and gasses?
Slow day at work... so why not entertain these hypotheticals haha

Reaching back to Chemistry 101, I think you are talking about Henry's law: the amount of dissolved gas into a liquid is proportional to the pressure and temp.

Now, brake fluid is usually polyglycol based (DOT 3 & 4 at least), which is a "solvent" meaning its good a dissolving things ie air, water, etc. Brake fluid in particular is hygroscopic, which means it really likes to absorb water. This also means that when they bottle brake fluid, they intentionally dehydrate it to ensure shelf life.

Now, what's above us? the atmosphere! so if you're at sea level, you already have 1 atm (~15 psi) all around you. What else are we surrounded by? water vapor. So guess what happens the moment you crack open that bottle of dehydrated brake fluid? it get pressurized with 15 psi and air/water immediately starts going into that fluid!

So say you just happened to have a hermetically sealed chamber and opened the bottle in there and now pour it into this fancy magical bladder pressure bleeder. Guess what else has air/water? your whole brake system! Unless its under vacuum, there's no way your whole brake system is completely free of it. So the moment your fancy pressure bleeder pumps this pristine brake fluid in, the fresh fluid just starts sucking away on what water is left in your lines and the old fluid.

Even if you managed not to get contamination from all that, is you brake system completely air tight? If yes, then congratulations, you will never have to change your brake fluid ever again! If no, then unfortunately you have to join the rest of us and have to change your brake fluid as part of regular maintenance.

Well that was fun, guess I better go back to work now...lol

TLDR: bollocks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,048 Posts
Slow day at work... so why not entertain these hypotheticals haha

Reaching back to Chemistry 101, I think you are talking about Henry's law: the amount of dissolved gas into a liquid is proportional to the pressure and temp.

Now, brake fluid is usually polyglycol based (DOT 3 & 4 at least), which is a "solvent" meaning its good a dissolving things ie air, water, etc. Brake fluid in particular is hygroscopic, which means it really likes to absorb water. This also means that when they bottle brake fluid, they intentionally dehydrate it to ensure shelf life.

Now, what's above us? the atmosphere! so if you're at sea level, you already have 1 atm (~15 psi) all around you. What else are we surrounded by? water vapor. So guess what happens the moment you crack open that bottle of dehydrated brake fluid? it get pressurized with 15 psi and air/water immediately starts going into that fluid!

So say you just happened to have a hermetically sealed chamber and opened the bottle in there and now pour it into this fancy magical bladder pressure bleeder. Guess what else has air/water? your whole brake system! Unless its under vacuum, there's no way your whole brake system is completely free of it. So the moment your fancy pressure bleeder pumps this pristine brake fluid in, the fresh fluid just starts sucking away on what water is left in your lines and the old fluid.

Even if you managed not to get contamination from all that, is you brake system completely air tight? If yes, then congratulations, you will never have to change your brake fluid ever again! If no, then unfortunately you have to join the rest of us and have to change your brake fluid as part of regular maintenance.

Well that was fun, guess I better go back to work now...lol

TLDR: bollocks!
We could discuss the theory all day I guess but just to add a few points. The RS reservoir isn't actually fully sealed as you might expect or be used to for starters.The other thing is that even new brake fluid can be suspect. I replaced the 2 year old factory fill fluid in my wifes Escape which was showing over 4%! water.
Because the fresh fluid was the same colour as the original I was bleeding a certain qty out then testing its moisture level expecting it to register zero or close to it once the old fluid was flushed out. Couldn't get it below 1.5%. Then I checked my new brake fluid straight out of the sealed bottle. It was 1.5%...damn. I also happened to have a single bottle of unused sealed brake fluid at home that was at least 6 years old ( I didn't use it for the flush as I needed more than 500ml and didn't want to mix fluids) I opened it up and guess what? recorded zero water content.
I think the Escape came from the factory with bad fluid to start with as well.
So from now on I will check new fluid before I buy it.

Ciao
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,694 Posts
Just curious if you got the issue resolved.

I wish that it had.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,048 Posts
Waiting on the power bleeders to deliver. I'm the most mechanically proficient out of the group, so we're in big trouble if that doesn't fix it. lol
Just another hint. The fluid level indicator on the RS on the side of the reservoir is a small arrow under a line. The full capacity is the tip of the arrow not the line. If you fill it to the line it will seep brake fluid from the cap seal because the cap seal has a tiny built in slit that acts as an expansion valve. It needs some air space in the reservoir to breath.
341242

Ciao
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
394 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
BTW, do you guys know the Torx/Allen sizes for the drain plugs for

1) Gearbox
2) PTU
3) RDU

Can't find them in the manual.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,417 Posts
The workshop manual says to use a pressure bleeder. Then pump the clutch pedal 5 times, top off, then try to shift into reverse. If it's excessively noisy, repeat.

On that note, shifting into reverse is noisy/chunky/clunky for me. Maybe I need to bleed my clutch...
Which manual are you reading? Looking in the FSM in section "308-02 Clutch Controls/Clutch System Bleeding" it states to use vacuum bleeder for the clutch system. For the brakes it states to use pressure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
95 Posts
I pulled vaccum thru the reservoir while pumping the clutch pedal 20+ times. Several times over. You can fit a cork or rubber lid to fit reservoir Look up clutchmasters bleed procedure, it works. Vaccuum thru bleed line didn’t get all the air out when I did my clutch job. I let res get too low and lost all pressure, did this bleed and no issues for 15k.
The rdu is a 10mm allen, ptu is t50 or t55 torx. For trans I cut a 1” piece off the allen wrench 8-10 mm, cant remember,😉to fit in plug then use straight wrench to turn it. A regular bit wont fit in that space.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top