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I've never been auto crossing, but always thought it looked fun, same with road racing at Summit Point. The friends that I have that have went to Summit Point say there are many other cars on the track with you at the same time and that you are supposed to yield to the faster cars when they want to pass.

If it is just you against the clock, that's obviously much more attractive if you aren't in a less expensive car that is more easily replaceable.

I would never allow someone else to drive my car, not sure where you misunderstood that.


Where do you race all your cars then? And why would you be letting other drivers race your 1400hp GTR? And yes there are special insurances.
 

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I fully understand how the AWD system in the RS works.

It WAS confusing how Scooby was explaining it and constantly tossing software into the explanation, when it was not needed. That is why I challenged him when he started making claims differently, than how I was told how this AWD system works. What I do not know exactly, is if the clutches lock up 100% ever, or they lock to a certain threshold, then slip. To me, that is the unknown.

We can easily figure out the torque multiplier to the rear if we knew it is 100% lock up of the clutches. Otherwise, the front/rear ratio might be greater and we only have partial lock up of clutch packs.. either way, this AWD system is very easy and simple to wrap your head around. The GKN system is not as complicated or "algorithmic" as Scoob was making it out to believe.




GTE...
Ford and GM have been co-developing two new automatics. They are said to be quite remarkable and be rolling out in 2017 MY cars. I had heard mention of the performance aspect of the 9-spd, that will be used in the hi torque mustang turbo v6 (think BMW M4). I heard it sits nicely with FWD cars too... the RS is a no brainer for top application.
 

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The RS should be a great AutoX car.. and a great track car... and a great grocery getter... and a great winter roller coaster..
 

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They lock up to a threshold depending on TQ input. Now if the TQ input is low enough I would assume they will go full lock as long as it does not exceed their limit. I really think the reason he talks about algorithms so much is because the way the system works may be simple, but what controls how it works is far from. There are many factors at play that dictate what the clutches do, and it seems like they can vary by miniscule amounts at split seconds having a great control on TQ transfer.


I fully understand how the AWD system in the RS works.

It WAS confusing how Scooby was explaining it and constantly tossing software into the explanation, when it was not needed. That is why I challenged him when he started making claims differently, than how I was told how this AWD system works. What I do not know exactly, is if the clutches lock up 100% ever, or they lock to a certain threshold, then slip. To me, that is the unknown.

We can easily figure out the torque multiplier to the rear if we knew it is 100% lock up of the clutches. Otherwise, the front/rear ratio might be greater and we only have partial lock up of clutch packs.. either way, this AWD system is very easy and simple to wrap your head around. The GKN system is not as complicated or "algorithmic" as Scoob was making it out to believe.




GTE...
Ford and GM have been co-developing two new automatics. They are said to be quite remarkable and be rolling out in 2017 MY cars. I had heard mention of the performance aspect of the 9-spd, that will be used in the hi torque mustang turbo v6 (think BMW M4). I heard it sits nicely with FWD cars too... the RS is a no brainer for top application.
 

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Looking at the cutaway it looks like the RS RDU has the electric pump design. After people get their hands on the RS maybe able to force a full lock on both clutches on a lift and lock one wheel and use a torque wrench on the other side to see how much force is needed before the clutches give. Design spec should be something under that value.
 

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My problem is that he specifically said there was NOT an overdrive for the rear ring and pinion and there most certainly is according to that article from GKN, and to get the ratio's claimed it would be a significant overdrive that is modulated by clutch pack lock. I asked those specific questions to him as that was the only way it made sense that Ford could achieve what they claimed, besides a modulated transfer case of sorts and he said that was not how the drive train was designed.

I'm not sure who to believe now, but I'm leaning towards the article that quotes and sources "GKN Driveline Senior Vice President of Program Management and Strategy Jim Voeffray" .

The way that Scoob explained it appeared to me that Ford had designed the 4wd system as more of a marketing gimmick than a performance ortiented 4wd system, which in my opinion is what an RS vehicle should have, especially this one ... which with the description Scoob gave also did not make sense when you consider the drag and drift modes that are available. The article however describes it as more performance oriented. It still is not a 4wd system based on a rear wheel drive platform, but it is meant to drive more like a rwd vehicle from what this article says. There will be more push from the rear wheels, then pull from the front wheels in extreme driving situations as a default, and that is how a performance 4wd or awd vehicle should be designed.


They lock up to a threshold depending on TQ input. Now if the TQ input is low enough I would assume they will go full lock as long as it does not exceed their limit. I really think the reason he talks about algorithms so much is because the way the system works may be simple, but what controls how it works is far from. There are many factors at play that dictate what the clutches do, and it seems like they can vary by miniscule amounts at split seconds having a great control on TQ transfer.
Control Node said:
I understand that ratios would have to be 1:3 (front) and 3:1 (rear) with 100% clamping (while not exceeding specs of clutches) in a straight line to get even front:rear distribution. Very sure that 1:3 and 7:1 would not happen, the rear wheels could be so under driven and the drive train "wind-up" (quoting word used by Scooby) would be insane. With 1:3 and 7:1 the rear wheels would turn less than half the rate as the front and would be dragging all the time when the clutches are 100% closed if the drag doesn't exceed the torque limits of the clutches.

I don't think Scooby described it as a gimmick, just that its not really AWD in the way most people think, that being center diff and always connected. Maybe Ford should use Honda's "Realtime AWD" naming or something to make it sound like more than AWD.
 

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I've never been auto crossing, but always thought it looked fun, same with road racing at Summit Point. The friends that I have that have went to Summit Point say there are many other cars on the track with you at the same time and that you are supposed to yield to the faster cars when they want to pass.

If it is just you against the clock, that's obviously much more attractive if you aren't in a less expensive car that is more easily replaceable.

I would never allow someone else to drive my car, not sure where you misunderstood that.
Sorry, I assumed you knew that auto-x was not an event where side by side racing occurs. You know what they say when you assume...lol

Just get the appropriate insurance.
 

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No worries, I've never done an autox, hence my newb questions.

I think the RS would be a lot of fun to autox in and since I can get insurance I think I am going to try it.



Sorry, I assumed you knew that auto-x was not an event where side by side racing occurs. You know what they say when you assume...lol

Just get the appropriate insurance.
 

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The RS should be a great AutoX car.. and a great track car... and a great grocery getter... and a great winter roller coaster..
I have a FoST and have difficulty not cooking the brakes at an autox due to the e-diff. Went though a few different sets of pads until I found some that could handle a ProSolo without trying to catch fire. I haven't heard of anyone doing a 20 minute aggressive track session without problems in a FoST event with track pads. I have a reliable source with information from the cars development that said the end of a 20 minute track session still has concerns. Hopefully pads and fluid will be enough to resolve that in the RS. It definitely shouldn't have any issues covering three out of the four you listed.
 

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They lock up to a threshold depending on TQ input. Now if the TQ input is low enough I would assume they will go full lock as long as it does not exceed their limit. I really think the reason he talks about algorithms so much is because the way the system works may be simple, but what controls how it works is far from. There are many factors at play that dictate what the clutches do, and it seems like they can vary by miniscule amounts at split seconds having a great control on TQ transfer.
Unfortunately, nobody was discussing the modulations, or intricacies of the AWD system, but instead of maximums & ultimate potentials. It was Scooby, who kept reverting back to discussing software, because he was avoiding the maximum comment.

Again, I am ONLY speaking in terms of max % to rear. Upon that, I think the clutch packs are on full lock up, drawing 70% power from the system.
 

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I have a FoST and have difficulty not cooking the brakes at an autox due to the e-diff. Went though a few different sets of pads until I found some that could handle a ProSolo without trying to catch fire. I haven't heard of anyone doing a 20 minute aggressive track session without problems in a FoST event with track pads. I have a reliable source with information from the cars development that said the end of a 20 minute track session still has concerns. Hopefully pads and fluid will be enough to resolve that in the RS. It definitely shouldn't have any issues covering three out of the four you listed.
Odd, I've campaigned a ST in autocross and tracked it as well and never had a similar experience. 30 minute session at Watkins Glen, no brake fade at all. Could be that the Glen offers long enough straits to cool the brakes, but then again, no issues during autocross including Enduro runs that are 7 laps of a gokart track.

I do know that the engineers spent time addressing front brake cooling. Not only are the brakes bigger but ducting was added in the RS to facilitate cooling. It was designed and built knowing it would be used for track days.
 

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In 2013 when I saw the car R-comps where allowed in Stock class (now called Street and r-comp not allowd). But fairly sure this GTR was not in Stock.
Eric Hyman's car. He actually had hoosier make a new mold to churn out custom fit GTR tires, think he had to buy a minimum of 30 or so
anyway, bad ass car, bit of a hamfist driver though...
think he got it done in the Prosolo Finale but never got a jacket at nats.
example here

 

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I have a FoST and have difficulty not cooking the brakes at an autox due to the e-diff. Went though a few different sets of pads until I found some that could handle a ProSolo without trying to catch fire. I haven't heard of anyone doing a 20 minute aggressive track session without problems in a FoST event with track pads. I have a reliable source with information from the cars development that said the end of a 20 minute track session still has concerns. Hopefully pads and fluid will be enough to resolve that in the RS. It definitely shouldn't have any issues covering three out of the four you listed.
Don't feel bad... the $50k M235i & 135is uses a fake e-diff too..
 

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Odd, I've campaigned a ST in autocross and tracked it as well and never had a similar experience. 30 minute session at Watkins Glen, no brake fade at all. Could be that the Glen offers long enough straits to cool the brakes, but then again, no issues during autocross including Enduro runs that are 7 laps of a gokart track.

I do know that the engineers spent time addressing front brake cooling. Not only are the brakes bigger but ducting was added in the RS to facilitate cooling. It was designed and built knowing it would be used for track days.
We had an autox today in Cbus and another FoST owner said he would probably never track his car again due to the issues he experienced. It was a "fun day" event today and someone rented a 2015 Buick Regal to do a "Rental Car Challenge". It was a mid 50 second course. Each driver got two runs. There was a brief time between driver changes and the drivers took their second lap immediately jumping into the start line a couple cars back. It was a high of 50 degrees out and we overheated the brakes in that car after around a dozen runs.

The RS information I had was from September. I can't say for certain if the brake cooling ducts were in place during the testing as he didn't mention them. I hadn't seen the marketing info that referenced them so didn't think to ask. Ford does know consumers will track the car which is why they were testing it. It was a concern at the end off a session at that time though. Hopefully they have done something to address what they found during testing and the brake ducts are the solution. I had hoped it would be a non-issue between the AWD and larger brakes. The ducts themselves tell me that there is/was a concern.
 

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After reading through this and the "AWD Questions" thread, my only conclusion was that, if and when Ford decides to release any Performance Packs for the RS, they will make certain that the parts don't upset the drivability & balance of the car. Too much liability at stake, unless they sell them with a bunch of disclaimers. So I'm thinking that we will probably have some modest performance increases ahead of us.

10% seems like a reasonable and prudent number and probably fit into the testing parameters of the AWD system, so that would get us to 385/385. If it kept the balance perfect, I'd be happy.

Since I have a couple other, substantially faster hot rods (that don't handle anywhere near as well), I don't need another fair-to-middlin-handling missile :rolleyes: So I won't be looking for anything that upsets that balance.

Jim
 

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...

10% seems like a reasonable and prudent number and probably fit into the testing parameters of the AWD system, so that would get us to 385/385. If it kept the balance perfect, I'd be happy.

...

Jim
Yeah, I'd agree (and most people would too, I assume). I don't think that level would create any issues. Everything that Scooby921 says revolves around this car being driven a LOT and and that components have gone under some excruciating tests.

Mike K
 

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I've seen this 10% number thrown around for torque/hp increase for the car. My thoughts are that Scooby was stating what Ford was trying to achieve. Looking at what was originally released (over 315hp), then the first update (345hp), and now (350hp), I think I can come to the conclusion that what was stated was the stretch goal for power. Adding 10% to the 315hp, we get 346.5hp. Falls right inline with what they achieved. This to me means that they were able to reach the power goal while still maintaining the ability to reach their warranty. Not necessarily that the system is weak. Just my thoughts on this discussion.
 

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I've seen this 10% number thrown around for torque/hp increase for the car. My thoughts are that Scooby was stating what Ford was trying to achieve. Looking at what was originally released (over 315hp), then the first update (345hp), and now (350hp), I think I can come to the conclusion that what was stated was the stretch goal for power. Adding 10% to the 315hp, we get 346.5hp. Falls right inline with what they achieved. This to me means that they were able to reach the power goal while still maintaining the ability to reach their warranty. Not necessarily that the system is weak. Just my thoughts on this discussion.
Yep, but by definition the factory tune has to be conservative and handle the entire temperature, humidity, driving style and gas octane range. I expect a Ford-sanctioned tuner via Mountune for at least 93 octane and hopefully one for up to E30.

Jim
 
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