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edited for accuracy until truth is revealed as company engineer and companies president of program management are saying opposing things
 

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Well, I have read that thread. and I've not contradicted the engineer as best I can tell. gte, you stated you are a street/drag racing type, so under those conditions it does take a lot of power to spin both front wheels. I'm talking more about WOT acceleration in a corner where a lot of the weight is moving to the outside side of the car and some to the rear, very easy to spin A front wheel like this. With an open diff up front unless the system applies the brake on that front spinning wheel the power to the ground through that outer gripping wheel is no greater than the spinning wheel can achieve. Without numbers, that Scooby understandably can't provide, I can't say if 70% can or cannot go to the back, but it could be possible. But, if combined the rear clutches are designed to handle 70% of 350 lb ft(advertised power), so say 175 lb ft on each side, and marketing ran with that, well, that is what they do, spin numbers into percents that sound good to sell people on a product. If they did do that, what if they based that 70% on the 326 lb ft numbers first made public, now with 350 lb ft unless they change the target goal of the RDU's clutches too it should be less than 70% of power to the rear based on how ever they calculated it. I still plan on buying an RS. And for the foreseeable future it will remain SCCA auto-x Street class legal.
 

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That's true, I've done this in my wrong wheel drive vehicles when coming out of a corner on a regular road, especially on an incline. It would be interesting to know if the trans has a factory LSD as well, that would answer a lot of questions about how much traction one of the front wheels could lose.

I might try auto crossing with this car, I've always wanted to, but have never pursued it. It seems like a lot of people really enjoy it.



Well, I have read that thread. and I've not contradicted the engineer as best I can tell. gte, you stated you are a street/drag racing type, so under those conditions it does take a lot of power to spin both front wheels. I'm talking more about WOT acceleration in a corner where a lot of the weight is moving to the outside side of the car and some to the rear, very easy to spin A front wheel like this. With an open diff up front unless the system applies the brake on that front spinning wheel the power to the ground through that outer gripping wheel is no greater than the spinning wheel can achieve. Without numbers, that Scooby understandably can't provide, I can't say if 70% can or cannot go to the back, but it could be possible. But, if combined the rear clutches are designed to handle 70% of 350 lb ft(advertised power), so say 175 lb ft on each side, and marketing ran with that, well, that is what they do, spin numbers into percents that sound good to sell people on a product. If they did do that, what if they based that 70% on the 326 lb ft numbers first made public, now with 350 lb ft unless they change the target goal of the RDU's clutches too it should be less than 70% of power to the rear based on how ever they calculated it. I still plan on buying an RS. And for the foreseeable future it will remain SCCA auto-x Street class legal.
 

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That's true, I've done this in my wrong wheel drive vehicles when coming out of a corner on a regular road, especially on an incline. It would be interesting to know if the trans has a factory LSD as well, that would answer a lot of questions about how much traction one of the front wheels could lose.

I might try auto crossing with this car, I've always wanted to, but have never pursued it. It seems like a lot of people really enjoy it.
Nothing like it. Straight lines b come boring after you road course and autoxross.

You want to get the most out of your gtr ID highly recommend it.


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That's true, I've done this in my wrong wheel drive vehicles when coming out of a corner on a regular road, especially on an incline. It would be interesting to know if the trans has a factory LSD as well, that would answer a lot of questions about how much traction one of the front wheels could lose.

I might try auto crossing with this car, I've always wanted to, but have never pursued it. It seems like a lot of people really enjoy it.
Fairly sure it was stated somewhere that like the ST the front differential is an open type, but uses the brakes to create an eLSD as needed. I think this was part of the reason for the brake cooling ducts on the front of the RS as tracking the ST resulted in several people cooking their brakes and Ford didn't want the RS to have this weakness.

Auto-x is great if you have a friendly and inviting club to run with. I'm lucking in that the club I run with is such a club and we have one of the best sites for auto-x in NC 5 minutes from my house. For the last several years I've hosted meets for those with old Civic/CRX of my generation in Oct that coincide with an auto-x event here. Perhaps I'll do the same with the RS community, but gotta get the car first.
 

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I'll be honest with you, my GTR is too fast for an autocross course, at least I think it is and I'd be very nervous about someone damaging it since insurance does not cover racing events. The best word I can use to describe it is violent, it's literally violent when it accelerates and I can only turn the power down so much ... maybe at the lowest pump gas setting it would be reasonable, I don't know?

I can however see it being a lot of fun with a stock GTR and maybe even with a full bolt on GTR, but you're still risking 100k and hoping another driver doesn't damage your vehicle.

I feel like a great autocross car would be an old DSM (until it broke, lol)



Nothing like it. Straight lines b come boring after you road course and autoxross.

You want to get the most out of your gtr ID highly recommend it.


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I might try auto crossing with this car, I've always wanted to, but have never pursued it. It seems like a lot of people really enjoy it.
Nothing like it. Straight lines b come boring after you road course and autoxross.

You want to get the most out of your gtr ID highly recommend it.
I'll be honest with you, my GTR is too fast for an autocross course, at least I think it is and I'd be very nervous about someone damaging it since insurance does not cover racing events...
I agree with what the others are saying. Autocrossing is great, and while there is only a few minutes of actual drive time, not going through a thrash (and expense) of a track day is really nice.

I'm sure if you got out to a nationals level course, the course would be big enough to handle the GTR. Corvettes and Porsches seem to have their fair share of winning in AS at nationals.

Mike K
 

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I don't mean to be impolite but if you think the ST has an understeer problem you need to go to driving school. Never have I once encountered a situation when driving my ST that it defaulted to understeer. I do have a Steeda RSB but have driven many in stock form and can say the same. The back end is always willing to come out and play especially while trail braking. I guarantee you that the FoST and FiST understeer way less then any Golf R. I will also say after driving a WRX and a some what prepped FiST for rally, that the FiST was the better handling car even on dirt, it was also faster and I could dance the ass end on that Fiesta with more control and finesse then the WRX.
I wouldn't necessarily say that it has a problem, perhaps I was a bit harsh in saying that it's "pretty bad", because under normal driving conditions it doesn't occur - it's only when you start to push the car that understeer rears its ugly head, which is to be expected. I don't understand when you say that your car has never 'defaulted' to understeer though - for a FWD car powered understeer is the only option. The only time the back end comes out is when you lift off (a stupid design in my opinion), you will never get the ST to oversteer when you're into the throttle - it's impossible, that's just physics.
 

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So it's not always on awd? 50/50 like the wrx/Sti?
The WRX STi isn't a straight 50/50 split. The center diff can vary the torque from 50/50 to 35/65 biased towards the rear (varies year by year. I'm speaking about my '05).

This is the DCCD and you can definitely tell the difference when you mess with it.
 

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I'll be honest with you, my GTR is too fast for an autocross course, at least I think it is and I'd be very nervous about someone damaging it since insurance does not cover racing events. The best word I can use to describe it is violent, it's literally violent when it accelerates and I can only turn the power down so much ... maybe at the lowest pump gas setting it would be reasonable, I don't know?

I can however see it being a lot of fun with a stock GTR and maybe even with a full bolt on GTR, but you're still risking 100k and hoping another driver doesn't damage your vehicle.

I feel like a great autocross car would be an old DSM (until it broke, lol)
They have insurance for these types of events to cover you. You have nothing to worry about :)


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Details?

Maybe I'll get my feet wet with the RS then



They have insurance for these types of events to cover you. You have nothing to worry about :)


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Details?

Maybe I'll get my feet wet with the RS then
I know when they have the PCA events they offer you insurance through companies they have partnered with to cover owners in event something happens with their vehicles.

I wouldn't recommend doing it without it.


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Here's a good article that speaks specifically about the RS's drivetrain:

GKN supplies innovative AWD system to Ford Focus RS -- AUBURN HILLS, Mich., Oct. 13, 2015 /PRNewswire/ --

Some highlights:
- Definitely NOT a mechanical 50/50 split
- Can apply torque to one or both wheels independently (we knew this)
- "When AWD is engaged" implies that in straight line conditions, without limited traction, it's FWD
- The system drives the rear wheels faster than the front (more torque to rear)


It seems Scooby was being disingenuous, or holding the technical line. But the fact is, more than 50% of the RS's engine torque can be directed to the rear.. and as much as 70% based on the fact, that the rear drive is mechanically multiplied.. and upon full lock up of clutches, it equals about 70% of the engine's torque.




How GKN's system works

The Ford Focus RS uses a GKN AWD system with a PTU and a RDM utilizing the Twinster twin clutch system. GKN's Twinster technology can apply torque to one or both wheels independently, enabling the vehicle's dynamic torque vectoring functions across its entire speed range.

The latest version of the Twinster in the Focus RS uses new gearing ratios that deliver more torque to the rear wheels than previous applications. When AWD is engaged, the Twinster drives the rear wheels faster than the front.

This overspeeding of the rear fundamentally changes the way the car feels and handles. In curves, the Twinster makes the rear end of the vehicle turn in more sharply, responding more immediately to the driver's inputs. In Ford's "drift mode," the AWD system delivers even more torque to the rear axle, delivering enough torque to the rears wheels for the RS to achieve a controlled "drift" through corners.

Some "torque vectoring" systems use the braking system to achieve simple vectoring effects but these can actually slow the vehicle down. Fully dynamic torque vectoring requires an intelligent driveline that can apply increasing tractive force directly to individual wheels. This produces purer performance and feel, while also preventing excessive brake wear.

GKN Driveline's Senior Director of AWD Product Technology, Edward Kwon, concluded: "AWD programs like the Ford Focus RS are rewriting the rules for drivelines – and GKN innovations help make them possible. Our dynamic torque vectoring expertise helps create halo models that set new benchmarks for performance. By working with GKN on the standard AWD system and the torque vectoring version, automakers can realize the best possible result for their global platform."




At a light, and upon launch, the power goes all over, based on what is needed, but when needed... the AWD system can be directed to have full clamp and be pulling 70%. And dumping it to the rear, and/or even to one wheel. Just don't expect a typical mechanical limited slip differential type of response.

I am quite sure, that in the future, and with a more robustly developed system.. that there will be variable control knob, that will be Driver select.. possibly up to 100%. It is entirely possible. The new 9-spd gear box coming is going to work well. Think about it..
 

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I'll be honest with you, my GTR is too fast for an autocross course, at least I think it is and I'd be very nervous about someone damaging it since insurance does not cover racing events. The best word I can use to describe it is violent, it's literally violent when it accelerates and I can only turn the power down so much ... maybe at the lowest pump gas setting it would be reasonable, I don't know?

I can however see it being a lot of fun with a stock GTR and maybe even with a full bolt on GTR, but you're still risking 100k and hoping another driver doesn't damage your vehicle.

I feel like a great autocross car would be an old DSM (until it broke, lol)
There is a GTR from Washington state that I saw while running at an even in San Diego, some people were referring to it as Godzilla. But that car was a monster of a GTR. Heavy and slow through a turn, but damn when he nailed as he exited the corner it seem as though he had very little time to move his foot to the brake for the next corner, so MUCH power in that thing. So powerful GTRs can run.
 

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All GTR's all models are referred to as Godzilla.

Mine has 1400hp and at low boost 1000hp I'm not sure what that GTR had, but I can tell you that even in a straight line I cannot keep all 4 wheels planted in first or second and sometimes third gear. I'm sure with slicks it would be a different story, Idk if the regular street car classes allow the usage of slicks?


There is a GTR from Washington state that I saw while running at an even in San Diego, some people were referring to it as Godzilla. But that car was a monster of a GTR. Heavy and slow through a turn, but damn when he nailed as he exited the corner it seem as though he had very little time to move his foot to the brake for the next corner, so MUCH power in that thing. So powerful GTRs can run.
 

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Before I realized what a clown the fordrsnation forum owner was and removed my contributing posts over there, I specifically asked Scooby if there was an overdrive gearing ratio for the rear wheels and he said there was not. He said they had designed the RDU to have a slightly different ring and pinion so that the front wasn't dragging the rear wheels, but for this overdrive you would need significantly more than "slightly", it'd have to be 3:1 and 7:1, where as 50/50 would be 3:1 and 3:1 ?

This certainly makes me feel the awd system is performance oriented and not a gimmick as the way Scooby described it, it was more a gimmick.

Where have you read about the new 9 speed gear box?



It seems Scooby was being disingenuous, or holding the technical line. But the fact is, more than 50% of the RS's engine torque can be directed to the rear.. and as much as 70% based on the fact, that the rear drive is mechanically multiplied.. and upon full lock up of clutches, it equals about 70% of the engine's torque.


At a light, and upon launch, the power goes all over, based on what is needed, but when needed... the AWD system can be directed to have full clamp and be pulling 70%. And dumping it to the rear, and/or even to one wheel. Just don't expect a typical mechanical limited slip differential type of response.

I am quite sure, that in the future, and with a more robustly developed system.. that there will be variable control knob, that will be Driver select.. possibly up to 100%. It is entirely possible. The new 9-spd gear box coming is going to work well. Think about it..
 

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I think the bigger issue (which may not be an issue once folks have them, mod them and we find out how much it really affects how this car drives), is the mechanical limitations of how much torque can be sent to the rear. We don't know what that limitation is yet, but at some limit, it will send only so much torque to the rear and the rest is going to the front.

All of that being said, I'm sure Ford will be releasing a special edition of the RS and it will be interesting to see what in the drivetrain they upgrade (and how much additional power it has).

Crowley
 

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All GTR's all models are referred to as Godzilla.

Mine has 1400hp and at low boost 1000hp I'm not sure what that GTR had, but I can tell you that even in a straight line I cannot keep all 4 wheels planted in first or second and sometimes third gear. I'm sure with slicks it would be a different story, Idk if the regular street car classes allow the usage of slicks?
In 2013 when I saw the car R-comps where allowed in Stock class (now called Street and r-comp not allowd). But fairly sure this GTR was not in Stock.

Before I realized what a clown the fordrsnation forum owner was and removed my contributing posts over there, I specifically asked Scooby if there was an overdrive gearing ratio for the rear wheels and he said there was not. He said they had designed the RDU to have a slightly different ring and pinion so that the front wasn't dragging the rear wheels, but for this overdrive you would need significantly more than "slightly", it'd have to be 3:1 and 7:1, where as 50/50 would be 3:1 and 3:1 ?

This certainly makes me feel the awd system is performance oriented and not a gimmick as the way Scooby described it, it was more a gimmick.

Where have you read about the new 9 speed gear box?
I understand that ratios would have to be 1:3 (front) and 3:1 (rear) with 100% clamping (while not exceeding specs of clutches) in a straight line to get even front:rear distribution. Very sure that 1:3 and 7:1 would not happen, the rear wheels could be so under driven and the drive train "wind-up" (quoting word used by Scooby) would be insane. With 1:3 and 7:1 the rear wheels would turn less than half the rate as the front and would be dragging all the time when the clutches are 100% closed if the drag doesn't exceed the torque limits of the clutches.

I don't think Scooby described it as a gimmick, just that its not really AWD in the way most people think, that being center diff and always connected. Maybe Ford should use Honda's "Realtime AWD" naming or something to make it sound like more than AWD.

Just reread previous reply:
I can however see it being a lot of fun with a stock GTR and maybe even with a full bolt on GTR, but you're still risking 100k and hoping another driver doesn't damage your vehicle.
I think you don't understand auto-x. You are racing the clock. Car on car wrecks in auto-x are very rare as the cars have staggered starts or only 1 on course at a time. If more than one is on course and someone spins works on course start waving red flags to stop the next car if you don't get moving fast enough.
 

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I'll be honest with you, my GTR is too fast for an autocross course, at least I think it is and I'd be very nervous about someone damaging it since insurance does not cover racing events. The best word I can use to describe it is violent, it's literally violent when it accelerates and I can only turn the power down so much ... maybe at the lowest pump gas setting it would be reasonable, I don't know?

I can however see it being a lot of fun with a stock GTR and maybe even with a full bolt on GTR, but you're still risking 100k and hoping another driver doesn't damage your vehicle.

I feel like a great autocross car would be an old DSM (until it broke, lol)
Where do you race all your cars then? And why would you be letting other drivers race your 1400hp GTR? And yes there are special insurances.
 
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