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The Autocross Thread

537K views 3K replies 226 participants last post by  buttdyno 
#1 · (Edited)
Who plans to autocross their RS?
any bets on what class it will end up in? I hope it falls into BS for competition sake, but due to the limited availability of it, I wont be surprised if it gets buried in AS. Either way I plan to run it locally at Ft Devens and try to make a few national events. I realize its a ways off before this car will be driven in anger, but its never to soon to dream about it.

currently I like to dream about the tail getting a bit loose mid corner from a slightly hot entry and then instead of giving it up I get back down on the gas and power past the apex and exit the corner under nearly full boost.
the best part about this dream is that soon it will be a reality.
 
#589 ·
Are those rims the Leggera HLT? I'm looking at those but I wanna daily them. I'm looking to daily it and want as close to stock diameter so I don't throw off my mph gauge, suggestions?
 
#594 · (Edited)
For myself, after playing with the modes in an empty parking lot, I'm thinking the best modes for autocross are either Track or Drift, depending on the specific course. The more technical/narrow the course should be in Track and if room is allowed on the course, consider Drift mode. My experience in playing with drift mode (admittedly with winter tires) is that this added the ability to keep up engine speed and steer much more quickly with the throttle. In drift mode, for example, the more you open the throttle, the more the car turns. Then you lift, the car immediately straightens and you reapply the throttle. Essentially, you can do a 180 at will with just steering and gas input.

Turns out Drift mode isn't just for eating tires; it allows for a completely different driving style/approach.
 
#595 ·
For myself, after playing with the modes in an empty parking lot, I'm thinking the best modes for autocross are either Track or Drift, depending on the specific course. The more technical/narrow the course should be in Track and if room is allowed on the course. My experience in playing with drift mode (admittedly with winter tires) is that this added the ability to keep up engine speed and steer much more quickly with the throttle. In drift mode, for example, the more you open the throttle, the more the car turns. Then you lift, the car immediately straightens and you reapply the throttle. Essentially, you can do a 180 at will with just steering and gas input.

Turns out Drift mode isn't just for eating tires; it allows for a completely different driving style/approach.
I agree, more or less. Drift mode with sticky tires just becomes “push” mode.... The car doesn't drift like it does with snows on. Or at least it doesn't for me. And I have really, really tried. With the stock PSS tires it works somewhat successfully. Like you said, with snows, it works awesome. With real track tires, it just doesn't rotate as easily. It may end up being a course/surface dependent thing which will work best, but so far Track has ended up being best. I have even tried Drift with the stiff shocks and Track with the softer setting. Track with stiff shocks really assists with transitions. I really think the shock design add a huge dose of compression damping in the stiff setting to make up for the soft springs. So much so that it causes the car to skip across the pavement in some cases. But it's quick.
 
#599 ·
I tend to agree that Drift mode has a place in autocross. That said, even with zero toe in the rear I can get enough tail out action on 255 RE-71Rs even with track mode on soft dampers. Track mode seems to require going WOT to initiate the slide, so it's more dependent on getting the big boost spike to "hit" and overpower the tires. Drift mode makes it easier to control the slide because I don't have to initiate a slide with overly aggressive throttle, so I can be a little more careful with making sure the car is pointed where I want when I go WOT.
 
#600 ·
Anybody here run at Devens in Mass? Just took my RS home yesterday but for sure I need to thrash it around the cones. Thinking stock class with RE71Rs. But may try 255 Hoosiers with some clubs because I have a ready supply of half used ones from my other cars.
 
#603 ·
I am there about 30 events each year. I am course designer for both Porsche clubs, on staff as designer for BMW club and design maybe 3-4 events, and arrive and drive (and work) for Renegade Miata. I also pick up a few events with other clubs. Hope to meet some of you at these events. If you want to get into some of these other events let me know. Somebody is running there every Saturday and Sunday from March 1st until October 31st
And if you are a serious cone head, I design the super long courses at Loring, Maine. 3 day event at the northern tip of Maine and the course is like a time trial/autocross. I lost it a few years ago on a big sweeper, doing close to 100 mph. So freekin much tarmac that I was nowhere close to sliding off.
 
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#604 ·
So are we getting close on a "definitive" autocross setup for the RS for B-Street? IE... best tire size and tire, best camber/toe setup, recommendations, what sway bar to upgrade and a recommended aftermarket bar, etc?

Would be nice to aggregate it in one place for those looking to optimize the class.
 
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#605 ·
I don't think there's a consensus on sway bars yet because almost nobody has them. The bar that seems to be suggested most often (front bar) is an enormous pain in the ass to install on jackstands and requires a realignment. The rear bar will likely just make the car more tail happy which isn't needed on anything but the smallest local courses, in my opinion.

Toe settings will evolve as people try different things for bars, tires, etc. IMO 1/16th" toe out up front and zero toe in the rear works well for me with an otherwise stock RS. Camber is essentially non-adjustable so do what you can to make it even from side to side (shift the front subframe) and then forget about it.

I'd imagine that the widest tire you can fit on an 18x8" wheel is going to be fastest, making sure to keep similar to stock tire diameter. I'm running 255/35-R18 and the gearing is a touch shorter than stock which gives better acceleration but I hit the limiter fairly often... I'd imagine a 265/35-R18 would give more usable gearing for a fast nationals style course and put more rubber on the ground, but how much time are you losing in every acceleration zone? 245/40-R18 is nearly a perfect match for OEM diameter, but it's narrower and you're losing time in corners, so I doubt it's the best choice. Also, you have to keep in mind the slight CoG changes with different height tires, the 255/35-R18s have the car sitting marginally lower.

Wheels are fairly easy, pick an 18x8" wheel with a legal offset (lower offset is better for autocross purposes) and get wheels as light as you can afford. I like the Sparco Assetto Gara wheels because they look decent, they're durable, and they're VERY light for the cost. $176 each and they're 20lbs, which is lighter than a lot of more expensive options.

I really think the biggest improvements to the RS will come from dampers that don't suck. IMO the factory dampers leave a LOT to be desired, but I'm coming from a BRZ on Ohlins that I spent a lot of time dialing in... I'm really tempted to pay a lot of money to have proper dampers built up like MCS did for the C-Street BRZ/FR-S:


http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=66_271_273&products_id=568 - See the "Stock Spring Perch" option
 
#606 ·
@DocWalt thanks for the write up

Have some light wheels coming in (ADVAN RSII, weigh under 17lbs per wheel) and I went with 245/40's for my first go-round on the new wheels, we usually have courses that allow for more top end, and the bigger diameter should keep me off the limiter as often. Perhaps I will up to 255/35 for next set. Would you say that if you weren't going to hassle with the front sway, you would just leave the rear stock or go for that new Steeda rear bar? Is adjusting toe something you can do in a home garage or do you need specialty tools for that stuff?
 
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#607 ·
Honestly, the balance of the car feels pretty good. Obviously you can make it understeer or oversteer, but it's progressive and controllable. My thinking is that the front bar would help support the front end a bit so there would be less camber loss and help the front end grip up. It would also help in slaloms because you're not waiting as long for it to transition.

Setting toe is pretty easy to do at home, especially if you buy a set of toe plates ($45 or so) but you should ideally have a level place to play with alignment.
 
#610 ·
IMO a front bar is a must. It's the single biggest modification I've done that drastically improved the car. I track mine as well so toe is hard to balance. Auto x alignments are inheriently unstable. Doc nailed it on the head for everything else. I know the front bar is a royal pain, even with me doing it on the lift. But I guarantee you'll love it. The video is on Blakes Garage for those that haven't seen it. Took me about 2hrs with filming. Only real tip I would say is make sure the bar is centered before you snug everything up. It's a very tight fit in there.

My rear bar comes in next week. My next track day is next month and I've changed a ton so we will see how it goes. If anything, I might put some toe in on the rear. The car is very tail happy right now because the front digs so much (and also my driving style). Great for fun, not so much for times haha
 
#613 ·
This month or next at the latest. Still working on a group buy for you guys.
I'm glad to hear the front bar is working so well for you. I watched the video last night, you guys made it seem not TOO bad, but with my experience doing essentially the same install on my GTI, it's not easy on jack stands.
Some very tall jack stands at that. Would need as much room as you can to get the angle to wiggle the bar out. The other tricky part would be holding the subframe. Probably a jack or something would suffice.
 
#614 ·
I had a really frustrating day autocrossing yesterday. I normally don't hit cones very often, and I NEVER go off course. So what happened yesterday? I went off course twice and hit cones on all my other runs. What's worse, my last couple of runs were good enough to win the class by a full second, and the last one would have set fastest PAX by a pretty fair margin. It seemed as if I was inventing new ways to lose. On my fourth run, I had a clean, fast, run going when I went blazing through the finish line so quickly that I couldn't stop in time to avoid hitting a cone AFTER the finish.



Here are the results: Final Results

My last run, had it not been for nicking a cone in the last slalom, would have been a 38.799, so the PAX would have been .813 * 38.799 = 31.543. Fastest PAX was 32.382. :sour:
 
#617 ·
Most definitely. Within the first 10 minutes of driving I noticed a huge difference. Turn in was improved and the front end holds the line. I haven't been to the track or auto x since the bar upgrade and the coilovers yet, next day is scheduled for Feb 4th.

Unfortunately, the two guys we know and working with at whiteline just put in their two weeks and are getting a different job. I'll still see what I can do with the group buy, but I'm not holding my breath with what I've been told

Rear bar finally showed up. I'll be installing that and my CF hood once it comes back from paint this weekend.
 
#618 · (Edited)
Since you guys were talking about tire wheel combo for Autocross and tax season starting, I figured I should start shopping around for a set.
Would definitely appreciate any feedback with these since I've never really purchased a set just exclusively to Autocross.

Was thinking of using these:

Konig 48MG Rennform 18x8 | Offset 40 | Weight 18.62lbs
Rennform - Konig Wheels
Alloy wheel Rim Tire Spoke Wheel


Bridgestone POTENZA RE-71R
245/40R18

Is this a good starting point? Would I have any clearing issues with the giant calipers on the front or the offset being bad for Autocross?
I used this website to sorta give me an idea of how the old vs new setup would be, and it seems fine but not sure if I can trust that 100% :p
http://www.willtheyfit.com/index.php?width=235&aspect=35&diameter=19&wheelwidth=8&offset=50&width2=245&aspect2=40&wheel_size=18&wheel_width=8&offset2=40#isPage=1

(sorry for all the random questions)
 
#620 ·
Since you guys were talking about tire wheel combo for Autocross and tax season starting, I figured I should start shopping around for a set.
Would definitely appreciate any feedback with these since I've never really purchased a set just exclusively to Autocross.

Was thinking of using these:

Konig 48MG Rennform 18x8 | Offset 40 | Weight 18.62lbs
Rennform - Konig Wheels

Bridgestone POTENZA RE-71R
245/40R18

Is this a good starting point? Would I have any clearing issues with the giant calipers on the front or the offset being bad for Autocross?
I used this website to sorta give me an idea of how the old vs new setup would be, and it seems fine but not sure if I can trust that 100% :p
Online Wheel and Tyre Fitment Calculator. Offset, Tyre Stretch and Speedo Error | Will They Fit

(sorry for all the random questions)
The offset isn't B-Street class legal (can't be lower than 43), and that won't be the fastest tire choice (255/35-R18 will be faster, but a PITA to mount on wheels). I assume those will fit over the calipers, but I certainly can't guarantee it.

Too bad the offset isn't legal, those are pretty light and look cool.

If you're not planning on going to a national level event, I wouldn't worry about the legality ;)
 
#621 ·
Ohhh I totally forgot about the +/- 7mm for offset. Hmmmm I don't think I would ever do a national event... but would be nice to stay in the 'legal' side just in case.
I'll probably have to sleep on that and see how I feel about it. But if I decide on get something else, I think these might be my alternative:

Konig Runlite 18x8 | Offset 45 | Weight 21.3 lbs
Runlite - Konig Wheels

They weigh a bit more, but legal offset at least. And as far as tires, I would probably stick with the ones that are the least PITA to deal with, since I'll probably just end up taking them at Discount Tire or some mom and pop shop. I don't want them to yell at me for getting tires that are hard to mount lol.
Thank you so much for the recommendations! Really appreciate it!
 
#622 ·
Ohhh I totally forgot about the +/- 7mm for offset. Hmmmm I don't think I would ever do a national event... but would be nice to stay in the 'legal' side just in case.
I'll probably have to sleep on that and see how I feel about it. But if I decide on get something else, I think these might be my alternative:

Konig Runlite 18x8 | Offset 45 | Weight 21.3 lbs
Runlite - Konig Wheels

They weigh a bit more, but legal offset at least. And as far as tires, I would probably stick with the ones that are the least PITA to deal with, since I'll probably just end up taking them at Discount Tire or some mom and pop shop. I don't want them to yell at me for getting tires that are hard to mount lol.
Thank you so much for the recommendations! Really appreciate it!
I think the main options I've see are:
O.Z. - LEGGERA HLT (pricey but light)
SPARCO - ASSETTO GARA (a little more weight but good price)


O.Z. - OMNIA (on clearance, but still heavier) doesn't look too back so if you like the style.
 
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#633 ·
The car is pretty well balanced as it came from the factory, tending towards understeer at steady state, so I think you'd have to increase both front and rear bars equally to keep it balanced. You might even want to increase the rear bar slightly more than the front. In any case, changing both bars takes you out of B Street, so I'm keeping it the way it is.
 
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