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What's your theory on the RS NOT giving out advertised power numbers? Disappointed.

109K views 492 replies 157 participants last post by  Ducxl 
#1 ·
How are they gonna release a car with false advertisement numbers?! This is a big issue, whether you can get a tune(or whatever) or not in the future to match the numbers that they lied about its still not right. Car should of came of the lot the way it was suppose to be for the number of months ford has been saying what it outputs and hyping.
 
#135 · (Edited)
Cobb made this comment with their initial R&D on the ST:

From the factory, our cars are torque monsters. They generate 280lb-ft of torque at the wheels (on our Mustang AWD dyno) from 2,000rpm to 4,000rpm. This gives a LOT of punch off the line and makes them really fun when you jump on the throttle (to the detriment of wheel hop and sad engine mounts). Unfortunately, this power level can be rather inconsistent. We have noticed that engine performance is extremely sensitive to Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT), Charge Air Temperature (CAT), Intake Air Temperature (IAT), and Catalytic ConverterTemperature (CCT). When these temperatures increase, the ECU decreases power delivery. There are several factory components that can be improved upon to better handle this engine’s peak power output and keep temperatures in check.
 
#136 ·
Thanks RocketRS, now every tuner knows where to look now. Secrets out Lol. Good stuff tho. Almost sounds like it's going to be as finicky as the GR STi ECU to tune and get it to be consistent.
 
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#138 · (Edited)
Yeah, not exactly a revelation, I know. But I thought it was interesting to look back at what Cobb had to say about a system that employs an identical tuning strategy. With the tweaking that Raj demanded of his team (when the initial power figures came in at 315 hp), it's only logical to assume that the RS OEM tune might be even more susceptible to the constraints they mentioned.

For those owners that will be tuning their cars, even modestly, seeing pulls in the 296-305 whp range is really excellent news. And 14.2% drivetrain losses...well that's pretty spectacular.
 
#140 · (Edited)
So a few things I want to add to the discussion as I picked up my RS on Friday and have been underwhelmed about its performance. Today I took the car to my future tunner, Deadhook, and let the owner take it for a spin. He confirmed my suspicion, it feels slow. We then hooked it up to the Cobb accessport and downloaded the factory tune to send it to Cobb. Cobb came back and said that my car has software R08 which is the prerelease software and the most current builds are getting R10. Not sure if this is an issue or not but can't help. Secondly, and more importantly I was at the tail end of the original take of gas and despite me reiterating to the dealer, MAKE SURE you fill it up with premium they didn't. 87 is what my car got. Lastly, it has been hot as balls here, 100 degrees with 95% humidity in MI this weekend.

These things combined likely help explain why the car "feels slow". I'm going to be putting 1500 miles on the car this week and we will be doing a baseline dyno on the 6th to see how she does after all those things have been resolved.

Parting thought, even if I don't gain any HP/TQ numbers over today I still love this car. She handles soooo good.
 
#143 ·
So a few things I want to add to the discussion as I picked up my RS on Friday and have been underwhelmed about its performance. Today I took the car to my future runner, Deadhook, and let the owner take it for a spin. He confirmed my suspicion, it feels slow. We then hooked it up to the Cobb accessport and downloaded the factory tune to send it to Cobb. Cobb came back and said that my car has software R08 which is the prerelease software and the most current builds are getting R10. Not sure if this is an issue or not but can't help. Secondly, and more importantly I was at the tail end of the original take of gas and despite me reiterating to the dealer, MAKE SURE you fill it up with premium they didn't. 87 is what my car got. Lastly, it has been hot as balls here, 100 degrees with 95% humidity I'm MI this weekend.

These things combined likely help explain why the car "feels slow". I'm going to be putting 1500 miles on the car this week and we will be doing a baseline dyno on the 6th to see how she does after all those things have been resolved.

Parting thought, even if I don't gain any HP/TQ numbers over today I still love this car. She handles soooo good.
Good info Steve, Thanks. 87 Oct. is a killer for this OEM tune...regardless. Add the 100 degree temps, and you've pretty much got the perfect storm.

Nice job sending the files to Cobb. That is probably the most interesting empirical clue to date.

The plot thickens.......
 
#141 ·
^^ I'm adding to my pickup request list - "Please don't fill the car over 3/4", then I'm showing up with a 5-gallon gas can full of 100 octane unleaded. Might as well start off on the right foot.

Your comment about the software release # is interesting. I wonder if it could explain some of the issues people are seeing? Anyone know if there's a way to get your car to display the software release # without a scan tool?

Last comment - If I lived in a place that was consistently hot I'm not sure I would go for a car with a (relatively) small, highly-boosted motor. It would suck to get up for a spirited drive at 5AM and still have it be 90+ outside, nevermind the middle of the day.

Jim
 
#142 ·
The car should include a Dealer Test Mode (or IPC diagnostics mode) that may display some version numbers. Someone with the car will have to check what can be viewed. To enter:

To enter the IPC self diagnostic mode, begin with the ignition in the OFF mode. Press and hold the LH steering
wheel switch OK button. Place the ignition in the ON mode and hold the button until the display indicates Test or
Gauge Sweep, usually within 3-5 seconds. Press the up or down arrow buttons to navigate through each of the
display windows. To exit the IPC self test mode, press and hold the OK button for 3-5 seconds or place the
ignition in the OFF mode. Each button press advances the viewing window to the next set of items.
 
#146 ·
I really don't care much about the ET's I'm seeing. As long as the car is consistently a mid 13's or quicker then the ET is fine by me. I am more concerned about the low trap speeds that seem to be consistent with US cars and far from the 105 the mag reviews.

I was more than happy with my Focus ST's strip performance. Factory stock it clocked a 14.3 @ 98mph. It wasn't the blisteringly quick times some owners made. But it was certainly better than the mid-high 14's @ 95mph that mags were getting.

Most times the magazines are slower than what actual owners with decent skills and seat time will acheive. So a 102mph, even a 103mph trap speed from a 350hp car weighing in around 3450lbs sans driver? Not encouraging.
 
#148 ·
It will be interesting to see what trap speed the magazines get with the US car, as the 105 trap speed was with a euro car. To me, even the 105 trap speed is low, given that the Golf R and STI get similar to that with far less rated horsepower and about the same weight as the RS. The 101-102 trap speeds of the US and Canadian cars so far is really confirming that the 250 WHP dynos are what the cars are consistently capable of. I'm hoping we will see better trap speeds as more people track their cars.
 
#164 ·
Everyone, please stop the infighting. We're monitoring these threads closely and I won't hesitate to delete posts. I understand that this topic is a touchy one and there will be people on both sides of the fence. You're free to provide your opinion but be respectful of one another. If people want to drag their cars that's ok, you don't have to drag yours and you don't have to agree. This inconsistent power is a factual issue which we can clearly see from dyno sheets, let's stay on topic and see what the community can find out. That's why forums like this exist, let's not forget that.
 
#167 ·
To all actual RS owners and those who are waiting on delivery of cars that have actually been ordered, take another look at this threads title
" What's your theory on the RS NOT giving out advertised power numbers? Disappointed"
This is simply a Logical Fallacy: Loaded Question, and the scientific equivalent of "When did you stop beating your wife?" Troll and clik bait and the # of foolish posts by people that neither have or will ever have an RS is astounding in accepting that thread title premise in that all RSs are defective. Look up the big words or ask your Mommy if you don't understand what challenged behavior is being exhibited. "Well I had a passenger" " The dealer put in regular gas" "It was a hot day" " Only had a two wheel dyno", or that high elevation and humidity isn't important! Sounds like VW and Subaru sales personnel have hijacked this RS enthusiast forum and giving their lives meaning. The number of agreeing responses from non-owners is incredible. To all true RSers let's wait for real reports from actual professionals before we allow nasty rumor mongers to hurt the RSs name. Those trolls won't stop but we can ignore them.. So, a question for those aforementioned negative posters, are you really very stupid, or just a little stupid? To stupid to answer is your only other choice. Stumped?
 
#168 ·
The thread arose because several tuning houses posted inconsistent dyno results. And the only reason we are seeing it now is because EU tuning houses love to post flywheel numbers that were calculated from WHP numbers with a guessed correction factor.

When the US based tuners got ahold of the car, we got more data which painted a different picture. We are also seeing poor trap speeds from cars hitting the strip. Its the combination of the inconsistent dyno performance and low trap speed that gave rise to this thread.

Of the few instrumented tests we have, Car & Driver's has the most complete data available to us.
2016 Ford Focus RS vs. 2015 Subaru WRX STI, 2016 Volkswagen Golf R: Final Scoring, Performance Data, and Complete Specs

We have enough information to see that the car is not living up to its advertised performance. And that is frustrating.

Do you know what VW is doing to fix the EPA diesel gate issue? They are reducing boost to meet the NOx level requirements. Less boost, less performance. Its entirely possible that the EPA hold requires a re-map of US cars. Not all cars are actually tested by the EPA. Many simply are results gathered by MFG's using a testing process provided by the EPA for the MFG to follow. The MFG does the tests independently and submits the results to the EPA.
 
#169 ·
@Rallycross I understand your concerns but calling people stupid is not going to be tolerated here. As the above post mentions, this is a factual inconsistency in power and is most likely due to some EPA BS. If you're scared of WRX owners giving the RS a bad name so be it. I have one on order and did not think for a second to bail on my order because of this issue because it's obviously some software BS. Do I want to know as much as possible about it? 1000000%

As you can tell, most people that are reporting noticing this issue that do have their cars are still stating how happy they are with the car. You say it's mostly people that don't have their cars talking S...do YOU have your car to disprove these notions?
 
#188 ·
All I can say in response to your post is to read the thread title the OPs post and all the posts following and to not misinterpret my postings. No one has been called stupid by me. If you are actually following posts here you should know when, where and what RS I am waiting for, my VIN, color, dealer and order #. No one has been attacked by me but I have been exorcised yet you choose to pick out my example of a Logical Fallacy: Loaded Question saying I am calling someone stupid? Your allowing this Thread title to exists exhibits in my OPINION bad moderating.. Perhaps a reread of this entire thread with a posting of a list of what legitimate RS known experts whom are questioning the performance and exactly how many complainers of this purported problem actually have, or ordered a car is possibly in order. Nowhere have I said I have an RS yet, nor have I ever said definitively that there exists no possible problems. Yet your interpretation of the previous events existing here are baseless. Are you wanting a problem, hoping one exists, not wanting to wait for a more measured response. Who questioned the OPs intent or rational for this thread title's insinuation? YOU? Anyone? What a resume of the OPs to defend [see below] but to disallow this unchallenged Thread title to be looked at askance by me is not OK? Good grief. This noob is allowed to start the most controversial thread going unquestioned based on his personal knowledge? NOT. His statement is definitive, questioning it is to be expected by discerning readers. WHO, WHAT, WHY, WHEN, WHERE and HOW, his post answers nothing just condemnation without any facts given. Disbelief applies here. But you seek to censure me? Thanks, I'm honored.

" What's your theory on the RS NOT giving out advertised power numbers? Disappointed. " 06-23-2016, 09:13 PM
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RS857 [OP]
RS Noob
Join Date:Jun 2016
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Member #:3810
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"How are they gonna release a car with false advertisement numbers?! This is a big issue, whether you can get a tune(or whatever) or not in the future to match the numbers that they lied about its still not right. Car should of came of the lot the way it was suppose to be for the number of months ford has been saying what it outputs and hyping."
 
#172 ·
I'm not disappointed at the numbers, I'm just wondering about the inconsistency and why it's there. There were some great numbers (307hp) posted along with the bad, just inconsistent. Let's also not pretend like this car just puts 250whp to the ground all the time, that's not the case.
 
#173 ·
View attachment 14665

Alright guys, stand by to hear some news shortly. Don't want to steal Fords thunder, but they are aware of what's going on. You probably won't be that surprised
Fords thunder, Who cares about that. If you have info why not just spill it?
 
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#182 ·
Well i will not say i am disappointed, i do feel some of this is what others have said, the car is faster then my previous car either at full power, or EPA safety mode. but the butt dyno and stock boost gauge do show inconsistency in power. Some times 2nd will just pull and pull and i go yeah, this car is fast and awesome, boost gauge will go to the third tick ~ 22.5 PSI. Other times i punch it in 2nd and it stops at the half mark ~ 15 PSI and it does not have that surge that i feel other times. Before seeing others with the issue i chalked it up to low millage on the car, not taking it to red line, Some times the AC is on, sometimes sport mode, sometimes not.

Is the car as fast in a straight line as i was hoping it would be, honestly not, but iv never driven a faster car at full throttle so its hard to say what fast feels like in a car, iv ridden sports bikes and those are fast, not many cars can tough those so its hard to make a comparison. i could sit in a 700 hell cat and maybe it wouldn't "feel" fast either, i honestly don't know.

I agree the issue though is inconsistency, why full boost sometimes and other times not?

all that said i don't think there is a doubt in any ones mind that the car handles like a champ, this i can notice 10,000% percent compared to FWD cars iv driven, so this is awesome.
 
#191 ·
Dude, what you fail to realize is the ones discussing the topic don't really care about what OP posted. OP may be trying to stir the pot but they're not baseless allegations. You're blindly defending the RS and it doesn't sound like you have yours either. And LMAO if you think I'm sitting here following everyone's VIN and car locations. Come on dude. Nobody is saying you're wrong and I'm not blaming you for defending the RS but you can do so more politely. If you can't then I'll delete your posts and we can see who wins the argument. That goes for everyone else on the other side of the fence as well. And from my perspective, "So, a question for those aforementioned negative posters, are you really very stupid, or just a little stupid? To stupid to answer is your only other choice. Stumped?" is calling people that don't agree with you stupid. @Rallycross
 
#193 · (Edited)
Thoughts about inconsistent power

Some RS owners are experiencing inconsistent power delivery with their cars. I've experienced this phenomenon as well.
I've noticed some "strange" things going on with the RS when you put the pedal to the floor. From what I can tell it seems to be related to how much fuel is in the tank. In sport mode the pops and cracks seem to disappear completely when ever I get close to 1/4 tank or less. At least it becomes a lot more difficult to replicate the signature sound when ever it gets to that point. I'm wondering if anyone else is noticing this or if their performance specifically takes a hit when it reaches low fuel levels.

Overboost seems to have a mind of its own, or at least I haven't really figured out the exact strategy that causes it to activate/deactivate consistently. Sometimes in higher gears it will run overboost, sometimes it doesn't...even under the same conditions (or at least what I perceive as being similar conditions).

I'm bringing this up because there are a lot of people out there making a fuss about the rated numbers for the RS. While it can see a 290+whp dyno run, it seems that the system will reduce power on all subsequent runs, thus giving the false impression that the engine is overrated. Believe it or not it is mostly ST owners who are flaming the RS for being over hyped.

NOTE: I've done as much as I can to compare the RS to my previously owned 282whp ST. I know from back to back drives that the RS is a quicker car, off the line and from a roll (however the ST will get the jump). I've run 13.6 with my ST on stock tires so I know for a fact that I can do much better with the RS considering AWD and the increased high end power. I want to put this debate to rest but apparently I need video proof of a stock RS walking on a Stage 3 ST *smh*
 
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